FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Discuss the FN Five-seveN line of pistols and accessories.

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FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 24 Mar 2011, 16:00

I just love my FsN. I've never had more fun shooting. I also own a Sig Sauer .45. Another excellent gun. However, if the two guns could argue, you know the Sig's ace in the hole would be stopping power. It would probably be a game ending point too.

I once had "Stopping Power" defined to me this way: it's 3:00 AM, you've been asleep for hours when you are suddenly awakened to the sound of two very loud men busting through your front door. As you reach for your loaded .45 next to the bed, you're listening to the sound of the two men in your house laughing and carrying on as if high on drugs. You stand in the doorway to your bedroom with your gun raised with trembling hands when one of the intruders emerges at the other end of the hall. His face red and eyes blood-shot. In the next moment, he sees you and begins charging your direction while raising his own gun up in your direction. You fire a shot....

...it is in this very moment that "Stopping Power" is measured. A fraction of a second after you fire your gun striking intruder in the center of his chest with a .45 slug, do you feel safe? Do you feel the need to fire a second shot in order to achieve the feeling of victory? Most will tell you that a .45 slug into the center of the chest of even a large man is so instantaneously immobilizing that the moment you fire the first shot, you know that it is over. However, with smaller calibers the immediate immobilization is less apparent making you feel the need to fire a second round. The idea conveyed by this very specific set of circumstances is that if you were instead defending yourself with a 9mm, the lunatic might power through the first round and keep coming after you.

While I think this a bizzaar set of circumstances, I still believe SP a worthwhile thing speculatively measure. If I fired a 5.7 round at the intruder, would he just look down and laugh? Obviously, this is silly. How high would you have to be to run towards someone firing ANY gun at you? Any thoughts?

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by jgreenberg01 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:06

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. There is no such thing as "stopping power"... regardless of the round used (with the possible exception of a 50 BMG), if your aim is off, that drugged up, charging BG won't be stopped. The rule of thumb I believe is this:

Don't keep shooting until you think the BG is dead, keep shooting until the BG thinks he's dead...



Edit: I use both calibers every day - I carry my FsN all day, but my nightstand weapon is my FNP-45 Tactical. Regardless of which gun I have with me when the SHTF... I will still follow my above rule.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 24 Mar 2011, 16:15

So jgreenberg, where IS this sweet spot? Is there a link to an article you can give me that defines this location?

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by srt-4_jon » 24 Mar 2011, 16:26

If I fire one shot into an intruder, he better be looking out for shot 2, 3, and 4. Doesn't matter if I am shooting 22lr or a 12GA shotgun, I wouldn't wait to see if he might fall.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by firestorm248 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:38

I honestly think any bad guy whether shot with a .22 or a 50 cal will quickly reevaluate his situation. I know if I was an intruder, if I survive the first shot, I am going to be thanking god and getting the hell out. They did say it right before though it’s all about shot placement and how accurate you are with the gun you use. I can nail a damn near perfect group with the 5.7 but my 9mm and 40 are not even close to that accurate, if fact I may more be a danger to a neighbor with them. It’s all about what you can shoot with and your shot placement. If you want to know a sweet spot just go center mass, largest area of vital organs. Not to mention in a truly stressful situation your accuracy is cut in half so center mass gives the best margin for error. If the bad guy is high on drugs and doesn’t stop coming unload rounds center mass until he does.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by jgreenberg01 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:42

Ospy wrote:So jgreenberg, where IS this sweet spot? Is there a link to an article you can give me that defines this location?
I didn't suggest anywhere in my post that there is a sweet spot, in fact, I was saying that it is not the most prudent idea to assume that any one shot is going to put the BG down to stay. Having said that though, let's assume that you can hit the "sweet spot" ie: sever the spinal-cord at the base of the brain while shooting paper targets at the range. That doesn't necessarily translate to a real-world situation because:

a) the BG is not likely to stand still that long
b) you're adrenaline will be pumping which causes your hand to shake, and
c) even if you train on a regular basis, when it happens for real, it will likely be a very fast & disorienting situation

Even trained professions, police, don't hit their targets 100% of the time. In fact, depending on what article you read, their shots hit as low as 40% (or less) of the time. I googled it and here are the first articles that came up:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
on page 5:
Portland police reportedly struck adversaries with 24 rounds out of 67 fired (36% hit ratio). Firing semi-auto pistols from July 21, 1984 through February 7, 1992, officers struck their adversaries with 19 rounds out of 44 that were fired (43% hit ratio).
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weeki ... .html?_r=1
In all shootings — including those against people, animals and in suicides and other situations — New York City officers achieved a 34 percent accuracy rate (182 out of 540), and a 43 percent accuracy rate when the target ranged from zero to six feet away. Nearly half the shots they fired last year were within that distance.
These were just the ones at the top of the search results. My point is - if the trained professionals need to fire so many shots to stop the BG, why would we ever consider a "one-shot" solution, regardless of caliber used?
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Robar » 24 Mar 2011, 16:44

Shot placement is everything. Just because you shoot someone doesn't mean that they will go down. Even with a shot to the heart a person can still live for several minutes. The only consistent and instant one shot stop is by severing the abdullah oblongata, which means a center mass shot to the head.
General rule is shoot till they go down. This, of course, is only for a deadly force situation, where you are trying to save your life or the life of another person and taking a life is the only way to accomplish that. The mozambique or failure drill is also a good way to train.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by firestorm248 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:48

Though popularized in television and movies, and commonly referred to as "true stopping power" by novice or uneducated proponents of large powerful calibers such as .44 Magnum, the effect of knockback from a handgun and indeed most personal weapons is largely a myth. The momentum of the so-called "manstopper" .45 ACP bullet is approximately that of a 1 pound (0.45 kg) mass dropped from a height of 11.4 feet (3.5 m).[9][note 1] Such a force is simply incapable of arresting a running target's forward momentum. In addition, bullets are designed to penetrate instead of strike a blunt force blow, because, in penetrating, more severe tissue damage is done. A bullet with sufficient energy to knock down an assailant, such as a high-speed rifle bullet, would be more likely to instead pass straight through, while not transferring the full energy (in fact only a very small percentage of the full energy) of the bullet to the victim.

The "knockback" effect is however commonly "seen" in real-life shootings, and can be explained by physiological and psychological means. Humans encountering a physical hit, be it a punch or a bullet, are conditioned to absorb the blow by moving in the same direction as the force. The physical effect against a non-penetrating weapon is to reduce the force felt by the blow, and in addition, retreating from an attack increases the distance such an attack must cover, which in the case of non-projectile weapons such as fists or a knife, places the target out of range of further attack. In addition, there is a theoretical sociological explanation, that in modern civilization, with far greater separation by most individuals from violence, hunting, and combat, normal individuals may simply recoil, buckle, or fall backward when hit by a bullet, even when in pure physiological terms they are perfectly capable of continuing to charge.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by DmL5 » 24 Mar 2011, 17:01

Most will tell you that a .45 slug into the center of the chest of even a large man is so instantaneously immobilizing that the moment you fire the first shot, you know that it is over.
Beliefs of this sort are dangerous fantasy. "Stopping power" is dictated by shot placement, not bullet size. Pistol and rifle bullets alike are extremely small, and there have been numerous cases where "large" pistol bullets (e.g. 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP) required many hits to incapacitate criminals. On the other hand, the Five-seveN has minimal recoil, allowing for more accurate followup shots; it also has a much higher magazine capacity than your typical .45 ACP pistol, weighs much less, has a flatter trajectory, and with the right ammunition can penetrate virtually any type of body armor in common use.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by PainKillaX » 24 Mar 2011, 17:05

The .45 creates a big hole; its goal is to incapacitate the target through blood loss.
The 5.7x28 has the advantage in penetration; incapacitation through damaging the central nervous system.

Another thing to consider, a 230 gr .45 at 1000 fps puts out a little over 500 ft/lbs where as a EA T-6 puts out just over 400. So the .45 has what I presume is a 20% advantage in "knockback" but as Jay has said, against even a heavy leather coat a .45 may fail to expand, negating its advantage of "bigger hole".

In a close situation such as a drug crazed attacker in my home, I'd much rather put one or two through the spine with the 5.7 and drop him there rather than wait for him to bleed out with a .45. Then again, plug him in the skull with just about any round and he's done. It really is all about shot placement but sometimes different rounds work better for different places.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by smpsmp » 24 Mar 2011, 17:39

Everyone couldn't be more right about shot placement. I always shoot center of mass, which means it might be a shot to the chest if someone is standing right in front of you, and it could be there thigh if only their leg is sticking out from behind cover. The only things that will really stop a "zombie" is a shot to the heart, brain, or spine / blood loss / and just giving up the fight. As greenberg said, shoot till the bad guy thinks he's dead.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by DmL5 » 24 Mar 2011, 18:25

To expand on the advantages of the Five-seveN platform itself, here is a comparison between another polymer handgun (the .45 ACP Glock 21) and Five-seveN:

-- Capacity. The Five-seveN has a flush-fit magazine capacity of 20 rounds, while the G21 has a flush-fit capacity of 13 rounds; so the Five-seveN carries about 55% more ammunition in a standard magazine. If a larger magazine capacity is desired, 30-round Five-seveN magazines are also available and only add about 1.5 inches to the height of the standard magazine.

-- Weight. The Five-seveN weighs 1.6 lb when loaded with 20 rounds, while the Glock 21 weighs 2.4 lb when loaded with 13 rounds; so when both guns are loaded, the Five-seveN is about 33% lighter than the G21. Meanwhile, a spare Five-seveN magazine (loaded) weighs about 0.3 lb, while a spare G21 magazine (loaded) weighs about 0.75 lb; so each spare (loaded) Five-seveN magazine is about 60% lighter than its G21 counterpart.

-- Trajectory. The 5.7x28mm fired from the Five-seveN pistol drops about 5 inches (more or less, depending on load) at 100 yards, while a 230 grain .45 ACP at 850 ft/s drops about 25 inches at the same distance; and there is a significant difference in drop even at 50 yards.

-- Penetration. The 5.7x28mm fired from the Five-seveN (with proper ammunition) will penetrate virtually any type of body armor in common use, while the .45 ACP will not penetrate even the weakest body armor types. [See some of the recent shootings involving body armor, such as the Binghamton shooting rampage and the Tyler, Texas courthouse shootout. In the former, a man wearing body armor murdered 13 people before killing himself. In the latter, a man wearing body armor opened fire outside a courthouse, killing and wounding several people; the attacker was shot in the chest and back repeatedly by Mark Wilson with his .45 ACP CCW pistol, but the rounds had no effect on the attacker's body armor and Wilson was killed as a result.]

-- Controllability. The 5.7x28mm has about 30% less recoil than the 9mm, and the difference widens when you compare it to the .45 ACP.

So when you look at the overall picture, the Five-seveN platform itself offers a number of advantages that far outweigh a couple tenths of an inch difference in bullet diameter.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 24 Mar 2011, 20:16

This is all very interesting stuff. Thanks guys for taking the time

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 24 Mar 2011, 21:13

Welcome to our forum! :)

Thanks to all the users that answered the OP's question. This question has been answered time and time again. If you'd used the search function, you'd have found it. The search function is located on the right hand side of the banner, for reference :thumb:

How about everyone just save this thread and others and send new people to it? :)
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by panzermk2 » 25 Mar 2011, 12:46

I Mozambique drill no matter what, and if it's still moving a repeat Mozambique.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by panzermk2 » 25 Mar 2011, 13:01

satellitedr3ams wrote:Depends on how high they are... on the stopping power. The brain may be dead, but the body may not be.

EA PFP from pistol 15 feet bone in pork shoulder.


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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Davidlee » 26 Mar 2011, 02:56

When I shoot, I practice the double tap with a third round to the head if needed, when the aggressor is no longer aggressing is when it is time to stop shooting :agree:
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 26 Mar 2011, 11:55

You can triple tap into torso.

At 50 feet, the FsN will triple tap into an IDPA or USPSA A-zone. I've done this many times, and so can anyone.

That means at practical SD distances of 2-5 feet to 20 feet, you can 5 tap all into the BG's vitals. :)

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by sinistershame » 26 Mar 2011, 13:14

I really enjoy this direction of debate. It is one that cannot be proved or adequated due to the "lack of definition". Basically you have two different theoretical ideas. 1. Is that a larger mass projectile will deliver more force or "stopping power" than a smaller mass projectile. and there are a number of studies and tests that evaluate the mass to force ratio and the resulting "stopping power". 2. that velocity over mass will deliver more force or "stopping power" to a target. Force= mass X velocity, this equasion can be used to find the exact "Force" any round at any speed delivers on contact. However for this debate simple "force" does not equate into "stopping power" becasue as any one who has any experience shooting at a live target will tell you there are places on any target where a large round will not stop a living target as there are locations on large targets where a 22cal or similar will "stop and drop". Then we have to include the effects of tissue trama. This is where the 5.7 shines. It is a proven fact that a super sonic round delivers a masive amount of "tissue trama" on target. Now you have to consider the projectiles ability to transfer force to target. If you have a projectile that travels through the target all the potential energy is carried with the projectile. So you have to have a round that will transfer ALL of it's energy into the target. Now we see why this is a fun debate. The number a of variables in conjuction with the absence of a accepted definition of "stopping power" makes everyones "oppinion" accurate to the most part. For mor on "stopping power" visit this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So in my "opinion" those that have stated that "stopping power" is the result of shot placement, probably closer to being correct. I would suggest the fastes, largest round that you can place where you want. I have a small wife (105lbs wet) a 45 acp in her hands will have very little stopping power due to her inability to manage the firearm. Yet the 380 that she has fired 300-400 rounds through will have more stopping power because I know she can hit what she aims at. My 13yr old daughter will do better with her GSG 22 than anything else, mostly due to her laser grips.
Then some one added in the "Drug effect". this changes everything, because it is a unmearurable variable. There are a number of events where even the 308 fired from a rem 700 failed to stop a druged taliban. Wow where does this debate go now?

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 26 Mar 2011, 13:41

Welcome to our forum, SS.

This debate has been held over and over again. It is pointless.

There is no such thing as stopping power. As you've noted, what you can do on your part is shot placement above all.

Any caliber that enters the body undergoes so many variables; the timing of the organs (see: heart), how much water you have in your body at that instant, body fat, etc.* In many instances, .22 LR even outpenetrates bigger calibers...

Forums argue back and forth on this topic week after week. 5.7x28mm, being the controversial and most ignorantly-known round (many know about it; even more are ignorant on the round), we see this topic brought up by every other new person to join the forum. I wish they would use the search function to bring up old threads and read into them instead of rehashing things. :( But people need to be re-everything; affirmed, comforted, seconded. This way, the round in the firearm sitting by their bedside will give them a peace of mind.

There is nothing wrong with being re-everything'd. But we should be out there practicing instead of in here arguing. Arguing does no good in this specific instance. Practicing our shot placement does. :)

________

*information sourced from speaking with professional wound experts and examiners, not of my own or sourced online.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by jgreenberg01 » 26 Mar 2011, 14:44

+1 to what Blue said... and when not out practicing, one might try using a spell checker. It only takes a moment and makes for a much better first-post impression. I'm just sayin'...

Oh, and welcome to the forum :D
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Davidlee » 26 Mar 2011, 16:24

Blueorison you make a lot of sense and soon as my supply of SS197SR gets here I will do just that. I also like the idea of a five tap. :patriot:
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by flyingirish04 » 26 Mar 2011, 17:26

The way I was trained was to continue firing until the guy is completely incapacitated. If there is doubt, continue shooting. You don't see it in any movies, because quite frankly it looks brutal and inefficient, but it is the way it works in the real world. Keep shooting till you know the BG is down, forever.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Mister Freeze » 26 Mar 2011, 18:27

It's really quite simple:

Energy calculations are the max POTENTIAL that COULD be delivered into a target. Smaller bullets CAN make up for mass with increased VELOCITY. 'Sweet Spots' require less damage to achieve a desired effect. SHOT PLACEMENT counts for more than bullet size or velocity.

Having said that, on any given day, in any firefight, I want MORE OPPORTUNITIES to PLACE MY SHOTS than the other guy. Thus, CAPACITY and SKILL are king and queen.

Example: crack shot with a TC vs a novice with something belt fed; who can afford to miss more?

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by drinksabit » 26 Mar 2011, 18:47

flyingirish04 wrote:The way I was trained was to continue firing until the guy is completely incapacitated. If there is doubt, continue shooting. You don't see it in any movies, because quite frankly it looks brutal and inefficient, but it is the way it works in the real world. Keep shooting till you know the BG is down, forever.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by fatherfoof » 26 Mar 2011, 22:53

Welcome to the forum. Blue, can you consolidate the weekly 400 identical questions into the wiki so we don't keep chasing our collective tails? The only variation is Fly has horns and a pitchfork along with a tail. (hahaha)
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 26 Mar 2011, 23:01

Good idea, Father.

Though this won't stop the exact same question from being posted each week, we'll have somewhere to direct newbies. :)
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 27 Mar 2011, 00:19

w/index.php?title=Ammunition#Effectiven ... 28mm_Round" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Done.

And with gusto/opinion.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by ryker » 27 Mar 2011, 05:53

1- if you could buy a 20rd, armor piercing, low recoil .50 then that's what I'd carry. Such platform doesn't exist.

2- level IIIa armor can be purchased used for less than 200.00

3- I'm lucky if backup is 5min away. I'm lucky if my portable radio works to ask for help. So having 61 rounds is a huge peace of mind. How fast does 12rd Glock magazines go in a battle?

4- there are countless case studies in which perps were shot numerous rounds with .357, .40, and .45 and was able to stay in the fight and live.

5- IMO FNH has done a terrible job at expelling the myths and showing some solid data. I'd love to see some slow motion clips of ballistic gel and other targets. Come on FnH take a look at how Ford is using YouTube.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Buffman » 27 Mar 2011, 08:21

That's the only observation I can make. EA can develop all of these rounds that are not only safe to shoot in the 5.7 platform, but outperform all factory ammunition.. Why isn't FNH stepping up the R&D and offering a more potent SD and or Duty round. After all they keep touting the FSN as a home defense weapon in magazines, but we've never really seen much of anything from them in regards to how they came to such assertion (assuming one is not a forum member here). I don't see why they couldn't bump up the #s on the SS197SR..

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by ryker » 27 Mar 2011, 08:27

Seams like FnH would have the abilty to measure internal pressures of a
Ballistic gel block. Slow speed camera footage of the internal
Shockwaves.

As well as penetration of car doors, windows, walls, etc etc.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by jgreenberg01 » 27 Mar 2011, 10:06

Buffman wrote:That's the only observation I can make. EA can develop all of these rounds that are not only safe to shoot in the 5.7 platform, but outperform all factory ammunition.. Why isn't FNH stepping up the R&D and offering a more potent SD and or Duty round. After all they keep touting the FSN as a home defense weapon in magazines, but we've never really seen much of anything from them in regards to how they came to such assertion (assuming one is not a forum member here). I don't see why they couldn't bump up the #s on the SS197SR..
That's a good question, maybe because:

A) with all of the anti-gunners fighting to get this evil gun banned - FNH doesn't want to press their luck?
B) people speak about the "anemic" ss197 round as if it really is anemic. Maybe compared to EA's offerings it is, however the round is certainly effective. I hate to use this as a metric, but look at the carnage that one (likely untrained) crazed, lunatic, jihadist was able to generate using (what we assume to be) ss197 rounds.

I'm probably barking up the wrong tree, but it makes sense to me considering the current political environment...
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Davidlee » 27 Mar 2011, 11:01

My 1st shipment of EA ammo protecTOR II is on the way. will do my own testing and it is not as elaborate as some, but the best I can afford, its make up 1st layer doubled up blue jean, 1/2" wet news paper, bone in pork ribs (cheap stuff) followed up by 14" of more wet news paper. Will try to post results and pictures.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 12:12

You guys know Brass Fetcher Ballistic labs is about to evaluate three of our rounds?


Included in this is high speed vids of S4M, Pro2 and T6. Since there are so many bar-stool commandos who accuse me of faking my tests I am paying them to perform these tests. I have given Brass Fetcher permission to make all their result public on their website also.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Nickf150fx4 » 27 Mar 2011, 13:26

Awesome news about the testing!!! I would love to see some high speed video of T-6 or any of your ammo for that matter

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Buffman » 27 Mar 2011, 14:21

jgreenberg01 wrote:
Buffman wrote:That's the only observation I can make. EA can develop all of these rounds that are not only safe to shoot in the 5.7 platform, but outperform all factory ammunition.. Why isn't FNH stepping up the R&D and offering a more potent SD and or Duty round. After all they keep touting the FSN as a home defense weapon in magazines, but we've never really seen much of anything from them in regards to how they came to such assertion (assuming one is not a forum member here). I don't see why they couldn't bump up the #s on the SS197SR..
That's a good question, maybe because:

A) with all of the anti-gunners fighting to get this evil gun banned - FNH doesn't want to press their luck?
B) people speak about the "anemic" ss197 round as if it was really is anemic. Maybe compared to EA's offerings it is, however the round is certainly effective. I hate to use this as a metric, but look at the carnage that one (likely untrained) crazed, lunatic, jihadist was able to generate using (what we assume to be) ss197 rounds.

I'm probably barking up the wrong tree, but it makes sense to me considering the current political environment...
A and B I agree on. I'm certainly not discounting the SS197SR, but it seems many do. It's just odd, that anyone who's intelligent knows the 5.7 is no more a cop killer than a 9mm,etc tc. Why FNH would have such a platform, then not try to get more out of it..

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Davidlee » 28 Mar 2011, 07:38

I believe what your saying panzermk2 or I personally wouldn't order your ammo, I just like to diddle around so I can get to peel the paper and measure the depth and see the bones fragmented, hands on stuff like that helps me to feel like I'm doing something productive. In fact fixin to order some more EA ammo right now. Mindset, Practice, confidence in self, equipment, and ammo that is the real stopping power.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 31 Mar 2011, 00:40

I wanted to say thank you for all the information you've all provided on this topic. I am not new to forums. I've belonged to Hummer H1 forums for years and I am very familiar with the format. All forums are basically the same. Having said that, yes, I should have searched out the information before I brought it up. Sorry for making you all rehash this over again. Still, it was fun. Truthfully though, I am new to this forum and it was just my way of walking into the party already in progress and saying "hi" without knowing what was already talked about before I arrived. You guys did a great job of dispelling the stopping power myth.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by 2ndAMVa » 31 Mar 2011, 20:19

To the original poster...Mozambique Drill!
The FN 5.7 is ideal for doing the Mozambique Drill.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by drinksabit » 31 Mar 2011, 20:29

2ndAMVa wrote:To the original poster...Mozambique Drill!
The FN 5.7 is ideal for doing the Mozambique Drill.
+1
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 31 Mar 2011, 21:41

From 20 feet you can triple tap into someone's head.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Robar » 01 Apr 2011, 01:45

blueorison wrote:From 20 feet you can triple tap into someone's head.
That should do it.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by grew » 01 Apr 2011, 11:12

Time for my rant. I went to the public range today because my Private club wont' let me shoot Five Seven indoors. Had a blast shooting my PS90 and Five Seven and at the end when I was packing up this guy and his wife come over to me and he says "Is that a PS90 I saw you shooting?" So of course I get mildly excited as they are rare in The Socialist Republic of Massachusetts. As soon as I am about to start telling him about it he follows up with "too bad the ammo has no stopping power" so I calmly take a deep breath and explain to him that there are non-lame rounds made by a certain manufacturer in Illinois. He basically stars going off about bullet weight being the be all end all of ballistics and then says the most ridiculous line. "I train in only one system and I train hard". By then I took an even bigger breath, and said "I shoot for fun and there is nothing more fun than the five seven platform in my opinion". I was so pissed but didn't want to start in on him about it. Not more than 2 minutes earlier we were doing a timed firing contest with 50 foot 22 rifle targets (A32) at 40 feet and I had 6 bullseyes in just under 3 seconds. I am by no means a good shooter and only recently got into firearms but I can't think of another weapon I could do that with.....

anyway I have learned to just listen to the following flowchart when dealing with these people
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Valorius » 01 Apr 2011, 11:17

There are some extremely devastating rounds for the Five Seven. Anyone that says they're isn't is either ill informed, or has an agenda.

A 40gr V-max at 2000fps is going to light a person up bad, and that's just the basic round.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ulysses38 » 01 Apr 2011, 12:54

Nice flowchart :thumb:
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 01 Apr 2011, 13:46

Grew, you are right on the money.

For those who are close-minded and do not wish to be educated, just smile, and walk away.

It is not worth it.

Trust me. I'm on the range at least once a week.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Davidlee » 01 Apr 2011, 14:09

I've lived for a while and wish I'd had this chart 30 years ago. Good deal.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by fatherfoof » 01 Apr 2011, 21:12

1. Turn on the lights.
2. When they see what I look like before fully awake, they flee in terror for having met the creature from the dark lagoon.
3. If I am awake, I'm uglier.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 01 Apr 2011, 22:28

fatherfoof wrote:1. Turn on the lights.
2. When they see what I look like before fully awake, they flee in terror for having met the creature from the dark lagoon.
3. If I am awake, I'm uglier.
Nice. Me, I inflate my lungs to make myself appear larger. :D

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by retirednak » 02 Apr 2011, 04:47

Some asked about stopping power. Last winter, a 1200 pound moose cow was hit by a car,she was still standing up but had a broken leg. No way would she survive. State Troopers or Fish & Feather usually put the moose down. The Troopers were going to be busy for the next couple hrs,I couldn't see the moose suffering that long. I was able to drop the moose with one shot and fired a second shot once down to make sure she was down for good. I was surprised the moose went down on the first shot and I'm pretty sure she was dead before firing the second round.

I now feel comfortable enough to carry my Five Seven full time.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 02 Apr 2011, 07:03

retirednak wrote:Some asked about stopping power. Last winter, a 1200 pound moose cow was hit by a car,she was still standing up but had a broken leg. No way would she survive. State Troopers or Fish & Feather usually put the moose down. The Troopers were going to be busy for the next couple hrs,I couldn't see the moose suffering that long. I was able to drop the moose with one shot and fired a second shot once down to make sure she was down for good. I was surprised the moose went down on the first shot and I'm pretty sure she was dead before firing the second round.

I now feel comfortable enough to carry my Five Seven full time.
I don't doubt, but it IS a little unbelievable. Wow! I almost need to see it

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by retirednak » 02 Apr 2011, 20:11

Since the cow had been hit by the car,she was far from healthy to begin with. A shot to the head shouldn't be hard to believe.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Valorius » 03 Apr 2011, 12:42

A shot to the head on a moose killing it instantly should be totally believable. The 5.7 is afterall known for tremendous penetration of hard barriers (like a moose skull)

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by flyingirish04 » 03 Apr 2011, 20:49

Especially if the trooper was carrying ss190.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by ShockedNKansas » 06 Apr 2011, 10:39

flyingirish04 wrote:Especially if the trooper was carrying ss190.
Retirednak said nothing about being a trooper. In fact, his following quote kind of implies he's not:
retirednak wrote:State Troopers or Fish & Feather usually put the moose down. The Troopers were going to be busy for the next couple hrs,I couldn't see the moose suffering that long. I was able to drop the moose with one shot...
I would ASSume he does not carry ss190 and more likely carries 195 or 197 unless he has secured la prima from EA.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by ShockedNKansas » 06 Apr 2011, 10:52

grew wrote:I was so pissed but didn't want to start in on him about it.
grew, you shouldn't let things like that piss you off. Your anger points to a possible insecurity you have about the round. If you know you are right, then you should be laughing at his ignorance. No need to offer the excuse that you just "shoot for fun" to try and placate him. Be strong and confident and tell him it is a devastating round and he should spend more time doing research before he tries to debate the issue.

If you still feel intimidated by such conversations, go ahead and pick up a .45 and now you own big caliber and small caliber and you can tell the next guy, "hey, I own a .45 but I choose to carry the 5.7". :thumb:

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Valorius » 06 Apr 2011, 13:34

Just remember Five Seven guys....

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by grew » 06 Apr 2011, 15:25

ShockedNKansas wrote:
grew wrote:I was so pissed but didn't want to start in on him about it.
grew, you shouldn't let things like that piss you off. Your anger points to a possible insecurity you have about the round. If you know you are right, then you should be laughing at his ignorance. No need to offer the excuse that you just "shoot for fun" to try and placate him. Be strong and confident and tell him it is a devastating round and he should spend more time doing research before he tries to debate the issue.

If you still feel intimidated by such conversations, go ahead and pick up a .45 and now you own big caliber and small caliber and you can tell the next guy, "hey, I own a .45 but I choose to carry the 5.7". :thumb:
I wasn't really pissed at him I was pissed about the fact I thought i was going to be talking to someone who really enjoyed talking about guns and instead ended up with a conversation about "stopping power". As for shooting for fun it wasn't really an excuse but the truth. I am certainly not going to be the one leading the pack when the zombie apocalypse happens. I'll just be the guy with all the guns and ammo. I don't pretend to be in the military as there are better men than I serving/have served our country that chose to do that. Shooting is a fun hobby and stress reliever from my day job.

Basically I over exaggerated my responses a tad bit (but isn't that what you do on the internet?)

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Adjuster » 10 Apr 2011, 18:24

I'm brand new here, but am also tired of the stopping power debate.

It is a relentless bovine scatoria spewing diatribe that makes the owners of .45's happy to be the big dogs in the debate.

What I find amusing is often the guys who say it all falls to caliber and bullet weight, are often the ones with poor shot groups, and really need to train the most to actually use what they have.

I own a few 9mm pistols, and even a carbine, and especially on the carbine, I get the "stopping power" debate nearly every time I show up at the range with that weapon.

The 5.7 round is/was designed to replace and upgrade the 9x19mm round that has proven leathal for tens of thousands. The reality is, the 5.7 round improves on the positive aspects of the 9x19mm design, and has no downside that I can see.

As mentioned by another here, If I wanted to carry a .45, I have one, and could choose it easy. But I like the 9mm or now the FN5.7.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 10 Apr 2011, 23:16

Adjuster wrote: What I find amusing is often the guys who say it all falls to caliber and bullet weight, are often the ones with poor shot groups, and really need to train the most to actually use what they have.
Welcome to the forum! You've already made a good impression, at least on me.

Check out the search function (reports of its existence were not highly exaggerated) :p and forum wiki.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by EARS » 12 Apr 2011, 05:25

I've had several people question the 5.7 round and why I carry the USG as my main weapon of choice for work and personal protection. I don't agree with them. I give them some of the facts behind the EA ammo and the standard factory ammo. If that doesn't change their opinion, I just ask them to step down to the target line. We'll see if this ammo is good or so non-effective. So far, not one taker. They also don't continue to argue.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by maxbid » 12 Apr 2011, 09:31

I agree whole-heartedly about stopping power is all about shot placement and not the caliber.
Point being that Grizzly bears have been killed with a .22 lr and a .308 did not stop drugged taliban.

So, I like the point made about being able to hit your target when in a situation where your adrenalin is pumping and how accurate you can shoot will matter. That is why my night stand gun is not my Sig p220 8 shot .45acp but my Glock 17 with it's 19 round mag.

I just purchased a FnS this past weekend and have a 30 round (20 + mag extension) in it. I've put my extra M6 laser/light on it and it will now be my night stand gun. I know that I'm going to miss hitting the BG multiple times and want as many rounds as I can get.

This always reminds me of the true story of Officer Ross Jessop stopping a drunk driver. It's all captured on his patrol car's dash cam. The driver pulls out a .41mag and the first pull of the trigger you can hear it go "click" and followup trigger pull is the very loud sound of a .41 mag going off in the officers face. Officer Jessop says "Oh Sh*t" and unloads his Glock 22 (.40 S&W with 14 round mag) into the fleeing BG in his truck.
Guess how many rounds actually hit the truck?

Here's a link to the dash cam video:
http://helenair.com/news/article_2123a6 ... mode=video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a link to the story:
http://helenair.com/news/article_2123a6 ... 002e0.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 12 Apr 2011, 09:40

Darn. And my bedside gun IS my Sig P220. :)
Perhaps I should load up a second magazine. Or, I suppose I could just throw my FsN in the nightstand. So many choices. Either way, BG Beware!
A liberal lady friend once argued that a lot of gun owners that are victims of a crime end up getting killed with their own weapons. That's absurd! If someone is going to kill me with my own gun, they're going to have to beat me to death with it, because it's going to be empty.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 12 Apr 2011, 18:05

All it takes is practice and a bit of skill, and you can unload a full 20 rounds of 5.7x28mm into any bad guy's A-zone COM measuring 9x14 in his chest from 20 feet and under.

I always hear people talk about what gear what gun what caliber.

It's all pointless. Speaking about it out loud online and to themselves is their only empty reassurance. When the time comes, they are SOL and will be killed.

Take our members such as DW (SWE) and B. (CencalSplicer). They went out and signed up for Frontsite classes. This is a very reputable academy that I myself consider top of the list to enter. No, a Magpul Carbine class isn't on the top, because it's not very applicable, unless you think you can carry your carbine around and are MIL/have access to land and hunt/LE (I never think I know enough, and would still take the opportunity any day to learn more). Even then they do not have it on body.

There is what some think is "cool" etc. and accepted in the "firearms community". I wonder how many of these people in the "community" should follow our fellow friends, DW, B, and others like Ryker. Perhaps much too many. Initiative.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Bones » 12 Apr 2011, 18:08

I carry an AT-4 between my front seats :p

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 12 Apr 2011, 18:43

I actually stopped and pondered the possibility of this, but only because you're Bones :evil:
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by jgreenberg01 » 12 Apr 2011, 19:21

Bones wrote:I carry an AT-4 between my front seats :p
I actually have one...

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 12 Apr 2011, 19:59

Image

Did you take the barcode off of your FsN, yet? :lmao:

Screw the AT4 I'll take the shooter.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Rapier1772 » 12 Apr 2011, 21:01

blueorison wrote:
jgreenberg01 wrote:
Bones wrote:I carry an AT-4 between my front seats :p
I actually have one...
Did you take the barcode off of your FsN, yet? :lmao:
AT-4 still has the barcode on it
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by f3rr37 » 12 Apr 2011, 22:18

I think we've beaten the dead horse enough here, and we're getting off topic now.

Topic closed.

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