Guns on military bases

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Rapier1772
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Guns on military bases

Post by Rapier1772 » 19 Sep 2013, 08:57

By now, I am sure everyone has heard about the latest shooting on a military base.
If not, pull your head out of the sand :p
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/dc-nav ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway,
I'm just curious what y'all think about people in uniform being armed on base?

On one hand:
These people are trusted with the defense of this country and therefore should be allowed to carry on any US military base. With the current policy, military bases are little better than the gun spree zones in the civilian realm. The only advantage is that (at all bases I've been to) they do perform random searches on vehicles entering the bases.
Military bases are US soil and therefore the citizens on them should be afforded the same rights. I know you sign away some of your rights when you enlist but the right to self defense isn't one of them.

On the other:
It is sad to say that not all military are trained equally in the ways of firearms. Maybe they should require members to qualify as expert before being allowed to carry? But how to enforce that & prevent posers?
Part of the whole military life is uniformity. Everyone carrying their personal firearms would not be uniform. Requiring a certain type/caliber while in uniform might be an option :ponder:

What other options would you propose?
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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by Yelraek » 19 Sep 2013, 12:19

Yes, there is a degree of uniformity. However, not everyone has the same wallet, keys, or car. There is a limit to the uniform. That isn't the issue that I would see hard to overcome.

IF anything. And yes, I put that as a big if. And I say this with the utmost respect (I am military in Canada). The biggest obstacle I would say is stress and stability. Yes, that is ironic to say because we definitely do carry when deployed, so it's not like it's foreign. However, it's expected "over there"... Everyone is on edge over there... This is supposed to be different from over there. And sadly it is that contrast (or sometimes lack there of) which makes the stress that much less stable. Symptoms of PTSD are so much more apparent over here when compared to over there. For some, deployment is very much an escape from reality. You are going to a messed up world which isn't really your fault or problem. Over here is back to reality, a sobering experience which can be (like anyone's lives) a very heavy burden. All your problems are suddenly your problems again. Over there, most news compared to where you are is good news. It is over here that we get such news as an upcoming deployment which some people just don't like to hear.

So as I said, I say this with the utmost respect. There are few people I would trust more in a warzone... and maybe it's hypocritical of me as I would love to be able to carry... but it is a fine line to cross to a warzone....

Actually, as I was thinking about what I just typed... it reminded me of why I am a supporter of being free to have your own weapons. It actually is because we're spoiled in this culture to believe that we are so different from these war torn places (especially in Canada, nobody thinks anything bad can happen here). But it is from seeing the rest of the world that I know we aren't actually that far off. Crazy, stupid people are everywhere.

Sorry for taking it on a tangent. My short answer is that I don't know.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by Stitches1974 » 19 Sep 2013, 16:51

Other than gong to a range, cleaning weapons, folks with on post housing ( carry to range/ hunting and back only and have to register them with the Provost Marshal ), and folks required to have a firearm ( MP, CID ), you're not allowed to carry a firearm on base ( commander's approval for anything else ). Barracks folks have to keep them in the armsroom and that's a bad idea, as the armorer and his buddies get to finger fark your toys when you're not around. If you get caught with one, the punishment is severe. This is how it was when I was in the Army from 1992-99.

I've seen and been in post shutdowns many a time, where no one is allowed off base for the whole day where folks search all your vehicles, on post housing, and barracks rooms searching for contraband, weapons, and such. I once had an airsoft when I was in Korea. It was confiscated and held by the commander until I left county. I'm an avid 2A supporter, but I see no reason to have personal firearms on base. Too many people in a confined area can lead to big trouble.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by Rapier1772 » 19 Sep 2013, 18:33

Stitches1974 wrote:I see no reason to have personal firearms on base. Too many people in a confined area can lead to big trouble.
Not to start an argument (although I am sure this will) but you just described every mall & school shooting that has ever happened. You don't see a reason to carry at these places? If anything, I see more reason to carry in these places.
This is the second major shooting on a military base & it had the same results as any other gun spree zone shooting.

The only real problem I see on military bases is that a lot of the soldiers/sailors are young, dumb, & sometimes full of alcohol (well we were but I'm an ex-sailor :D ).

What would your opinion of a viable solution/option be?
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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by ddouglas » 19 Sep 2013, 20:24

I find it a bit disturbing that this sort of conversation is taking place. I was in the Navy in the late 50s and early 60s aboard a carrier and ashore at Naval airbases. On the carrier, our division officer retired and we gave him a retirement gift of a Winchester 94 in 30-30. He was delighted and so was the Captain and Exec, who attended the party. We passed the rifle around the party room and everyone oohed and aahed it for a while, while each of us pointed it at a pipe or fixture in the overhead pretending their target to be a trophy buck. It was just another gift. Special. yes, but nothing out of the ordinary for adult males. Aircrew all had 38 Special revolvers that were kept with our flight suits and stored where they were accessible by nearly anyone, anytime. But no one really took notice of them other than as a part of the required equipment for a mission.

Firearms have been part of my life since I was nine years old. They are just "there". There's no magic about them,no good or bad, they're just there. The fact that firearms have become so "unusual" and such points of notice--so controversial--seems to me like we, as a society, have lost our sense of balance. That we have to question the notion of an individual "packing" as a good thing or a bad thing just seems to me that we have somehow lost our way.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by Stitches1974 » 19 Sep 2013, 21:13

Rapier1772 wrote:
Stitches1974 wrote:I see no reason to have personal firearms on base. Too many people in a confined area can lead to big trouble.
Not to start an argument (although I am sure this will) but you just described every mall & school shooting that has ever happened. You don't see a reason to carry at these places? If anything, I see more reason to carry in these places.
This is the second major shooting on a military base & it had the same results as any other gun spree zone shooting.

The only real problem I see on military bases is that a lot of the soldiers/sailors are young, dumb, & sometimes full of alcohol (well we were but I'm an ex-sailor :D ).

What would your opinion of a viable solution/option be?
I'm not arguing on that point. as it's valid. Remember, most shootings are done by random people to random people. On a base you work close with these people for years and years. Not everyone will get along and after awhile tension builds. You wouldn't believe all the stuff that happens on base that never makes the news. I got into a few scuffles myself and probably would be dead if the other party had a weapon.

As for a viable option, I really don't think there's any. Missouri just passed a law stating an 18 year old stationed here can have a CCW permit and carry legally. I'm glad that it passed, but now a few states won't accept our CCW permits because of it.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by grimmond » 19 Sep 2013, 21:27

ddouglas wrote: Firearms have been part of my life since I was nine years old. They are just "there". There's no magic about them,no good or bad, they're just there. The fact that firearms have become so "unusual" and such points of notice--so controversial--seems to me like we, as a society, have lost our sense of balance. That we have to question the notion of an individual "packing" as a good thing or a bad thing just seems to me that we have somehow lost our way.
I myself have had firearms in my life since I was 5. I received a Red Ryder BB gun for my birthday and spent many hours with both my father and grandfather learning firearm safety.

I currently serve in the military for the second time. There are many a soldier that carry firearms while on JBLM. As long as you are registered with the Provost Marshal you can CC from what I have been informed. I personally don't feel I need to.

When I first joined back in the early 1990's I was a combat medic and LPN till 2000. I can tell you that back then, the full effects of PTSD were still being debated as to being a real medical issue or just a excuse to get out of work details or a disability to gain easy money. Now I am back in working in the MI world I see a different standard and method for training troops. In my opinion it seems to be an even larger issue because of the lightening of the stresses in training. In the past these stresses helped countless soldiers when in the battle field environment because of the close control and familiarity of the stresses. The controls that were in place back then are now gone. I have new soldiers coming straight out of basic who were not cut off from family and had what they called no stress cards to give to the DI's if they felt they were being to ruff. In my opinion this has led to PTSD being rampant. And on top of that, the command claim to be trying to help those soldiers with out any negative effects on the career of the soldier, but I have personally witnessed the opposite. There are alot of soldiers that need the tools to cope with their issue but are afraid to come forward because of this. They are all great people but you will always have the soldier that slips through the cracks and is not getting the support to prevent an issue. Even with all this, I believe in this last line from ddouglas says it best. "That we have to question the notion of an individual "packing" as a good thing or a bad thing just seems to me that we have somehow lost our way."
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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by firestorm248 » 26 Sep 2013, 09:34

grimmond wrote:
I currently serve in the military for the second time. There are many a soldier that carry firearms while on JBLM. As long as you are registered with the Provost Marshal you can CC from what I have been informed. I personally don't feel I need to.
"
Grimmond I currently work law enforcement on JBLM and I would recommend that you Immediately stop CC on base. Unless you are certian law enforcement on JBLM and registered on base you are in violation of the law. Call the Directorate of Emergency Services if you have any questions.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by grimmond » 26 Sep 2013, 11:01

I was not implying that I do cc on post. What I was trying to say is that I do not feel the need to cc or for that matter carry at all while on post. Personally I have seen it being done and was given the that response when I asked them, but since I never planned on doing it I did not look any further into it. But I am registered to bring a firearm onto post because that what I was required to do to use the ranges.
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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by firestorm248 » 26 Sep 2013, 11:12

Ok saw you said you don't feel the need too, that said, if I were you please pass that on to the people you know who CC on base. The punishments for CC on base can be very severe. When you register a firearm on base you are only allowed to carry it "unloaded" to the base range, housing or armory. On JBLM only MPI and CID can carry concealed anywhere, DACP can carry concealed to and from work only but have to lock up personal firearms in the safe while on duty. The idea of letting military concealed carry on base is something I am personally conflicted on. On one hand I respect the right but on the other the violent crime rates on JBLM are staggering compared to other bases I have been. Not sure if adding guns to the mix would make it better or worse.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by kismetcapitan » 03 Jan 2014, 13:57

military bases are supposed to be secure facilities. when I was in, I always felt an enormous sense of security because I lived on post. I had to as a private; after being commissioned I chose to.

I was enlisted when the Fairchild AFB shooting happened. So these incidents are nothing new. I would not support CC by individual choice with privately owned firearms on any military base. However, military bases are prime targets for mass shootings, just as schools are. Gun-free zones.

For anyone who has served, it is pretty clear why CC with privately owned firearms cannot fit military culture, not the least of which the lack of uniformity of a firearm, not to mention assurance of uniform standards of firearm maintenance.

What I would do is institute a system where every office and unit have personnel who volunteer to open carry issued firearms while on duty. These volunteers would undergo regular firearms training. By using a volunteer system we can also screen who is carrying, and unit first sergeants can maintain lists of soldiers they find unfit to be assigned to carry duty for whatever reasons they see fit. This is very important. Thus qualified volunteers who are assigned to carry duty on a given day would report to the armory to draw their sidearm before reporting for duty, and would turn in their sidearm after their duty shift is over.

This way an armed presence can be maintained in every office on a military base to deter mass shooters from even thinking about it, and this armed presence can be maintained with the requisite controls that are mandated by military culture. Military personnel do not live under the same laws and freedoms that civilians do; personal and private CC is simply out of the question.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by Rapier1772 » 02 Apr 2014, 20:36

Given another Ft Hood, has anyone come up with an idea to combat this crap? Did y'all see how many soldiers were killed in Iraq or Afghanistan last month? None, but 4 dead & 10+ injured here at home? :wall: :furious:

I was just talking to anti-gunner about this & we had an idea of a small(ish) security office in every other building or so on base (not including residences); something that would cut down the response time. The office would be a secure location with coms, firearms, body armor, and a couple of trained active shooter responders. Their response time should be < 3 minutes to any place in their zone (ideally speaking).

For instance, I was on a base which had 3 barracks complexes - NCO barracks, not boot barracks :D The last time I was living in one, they were nested around a small office building with the phones, mail boxes, & processing area. My idea would be to put 3 trained security personnel in that building, outfitted as described above. They would only be responsible for that particular complex, the other complexes would each have their own as well. As would the PX, commissary, etc... each outfitted & manned accordingly.
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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by Mister Freeze » 03 Apr 2014, 04:52

In civvies, CCW per state & local law should be ok. In uniform, open carry of ISSUED firearms as authorized should be ok, and even standard. Mass shootings wouldn't have the 'mass' if there were more guns pointed the other way.

I think the average service member should be better trained in firearms. On deployment, I knew many who carried all day every day but couldn't employ their weapon if they had to. It would be nice to reward proficiency with the privilege of carrying their personal weapon in uniform too.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by panzermk2 » 03 Apr 2014, 10:50

Mister Freeze wrote:In civvies, CCW per state & local law should be ok. In uniform, open carry of ISSUED firearms as authorized should be ok, and even standard. Mass shootings wouldn't have the 'mass' if there were more guns pointed the other way.

I think the average service member should be better trained in firearms. On deployment, I knew many who carried all day every day but couldn't employ their weapon if they had to. It would be nice to reward proficiency with the privilege of carrying their personal weapon in uniform too.

If we spent more money on training how could afford the F-35? :wall:
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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by Oldbindlestiff » 03 Apr 2014, 12:13

Ouch! :agree: :furious:
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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by grimmond » 03 Apr 2014, 17:44

I don't feel that any amount of training will fix the issue. It has to be a complete change in the current system. When I first enlisted in the early 90's I remember being yelled at, cursed at, hit, and thrown around and was only allowed 1 5 min phone call every weekend. In 2000 when my baby brother enlisted, they had no stress cards that could be handed to the DI's if you felt stressed out, the DI's could not yell or curse directly at you, he could call home every day, and he didn't have clean his own weapon. The change and differences in training I feel are a direct contributing factor as to the large increase in PTSD and soldiers not being able to cope and handle themselves. On top of that the Army says they support soldiers with PTSD and don't hold it over their head, but we all know they don't support them properly, they do hold it over you, and they don't know how to properly treat PTSD.
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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by woahhs » 03 Apr 2014, 23:27

ddouglas wrote:... Special. yes, but nothing out of the ordinary for adult males....
Which brings us to the elephant in the room of the American electorate (and the proxies they elect): most of them are female.

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by georgestepo » 19 May 2014, 06:33

does a military base had all guns?? i dont think all guns are found in military bases ... by the way what kind of guns are commonly used by a military?

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Re: Guns on military bases

Post by Rapier1772 » 19 May 2014, 10:50

georgestepo wrote:does a military base had all guns?? i dont think all guns are found in military bases ... by the way what kind of guns are commonly used by a military?
I think you're asking if military bases ban all guns - if so, most military bases ban personal weapons. There are a few exceptions such as on base residential housing, transporting to/from the armory.
The military uses battle rifles such as the M-4 & M-16, and pistols such as the Colt 1911 (.45ACP) & Beretta M9 (9mm).
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