Where you draw the line

Discuss the politics behind the gun industry.
User avatar
flyingirish04
Gold Member
Posts: 4783
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 21:42
custom title: Mtn Man in Flatland
Location: Great Plains, USA

Where you draw the line

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 13:26

I wanted to start a post on how each of us see gun rights. What I want to do is without responding to others, post below where you draw the line as far as gun ownership, ammo restrictions, government required training, concealed carry, etc. PLEASE NO RESPONSES TO PARTICULAR PEOPLE'S POSTS. I just would like to use the thread to paint the picture on where each of us feel the line should be drawn for a lack of better terminology. I will start on the next post. Responses allowed now. Seems we have a picture painted, let the debates begin

Note, this is for small arms. Not things that are considered heavy ordanance, like mortars, RPGs, etc. Lets keep this to small arms.
Last edited by flyingirish04 on 09 Apr 2012, 06:07, edited 4 times in total.
Killed Two Stones with One Bird.

User avatar
flyingirish04
Gold Member
Posts: 4783
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 21:42
custom title: Mtn Man in Flatland
Location: Great Plains, USA

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 13:35

People Barred from ownership: Felons and legally insane.

Limitations on Firearms: None whatsoever. I don't believe in even designating weapons according to NFA. If you are a law abiding citizen, you should be able to own. People should have access to whatever companies put out, and companies should not be held responsible for people's actions.

Limitation on Ammo: None. People should have access to whatever companies put out, and companies should not be held responsible for people's actions.

Training: Hunters Education provided at States Request with 100% reciprocity in order to by a Hunting license. No restriction to use a firearm or buy one.

CCW: No restriction as long as you are legally allowed to own and carry a weapon.

Buying/Registration: Instant Background Check, then paperwork is shredded. Children without parental/guardian consent if under 18 years old should not be able to buy a firearm.
Killed Two Stones with One Bird.

Buffman
Silver Member
Posts: 2912
Joined: 12 Jan 2009, 22:48
Location: SW Michigan
Contact:

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by Buffman » 30 Jan 2012, 14:00

^^ I'd pretty much have to agree with this. Just like how they don't want import M1 cabrines. Criminals get whatever they want. Why can't I have a chance to purchase an M1 cabrine, just because people say they have detachable magazines that make them evil targets for criminals to acquire.

User avatar
Rapier1772
Global Moderator
Posts: 12613
Joined: 20 Aug 2008, 09:00
Location: Kennewick, WA

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by Rapier1772 » 30 Jan 2012, 14:46

Permanently prohibited: violent felons, repeat offenders, insane
Temporarily prohibited: 1st time non-violent felons should be given a chance to earn their rights back. Suicidal persons*

I believe that everyone, who is not prohibited by the above restrictions, (& is 18 or older) should have the right to own any firearm the government has. This is for firearms - not every weapon the gov has.
Purchasing - 1-800 number for instant background checks.
Right to own any ammo the government has. That said, I am glad that EA & some other companies voluntarily restrict some of their ammo sales. I've seen what some of that ammo can do & it is somewhat calming to know that it is not out there for any halfwit to misuse. Abuse is what leads to government imposed restrictions which are much worse.
BATFE needs to go away.
Gun/ammo makers should not be held liable for the actions of others.
Putting a requirement for training is equivalent to restricting a right. However, any responsible gun owner would take it upon his/herself to get the training needed before going out & using a firearm of any sort.
Concealed carry - if you can own, you can carry. But educating people on the laws is also necessary, else they may end up in the prohibited section. So some training & making sure they can shoot is highly encouraged.

* - Suicidal persons: the police should be able to flag certain persons as suicidal & temporarily deny clearance at the 1-800 number. Maybe 6 months? This would have to be substantiated by sworn statements of at least 2 people. End of 6 months, expunged from record or a new entry made
How to post pics & videos: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6363
Contrary to popular belief, you CAN fix stupid - it's just illegal.

ddouglas
Gold Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 25 Oct 2009, 12:39
Location: Bend, Oregon

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by ddouglas » 30 Jan 2012, 16:53

I agree pretty much with Irish, but I would change his "CCW" response to:

CCW: over 21 and require 8-hour training in firearms handling, responsibilities of CCW license holders, liabilities expected in use of deadly force

N4TAB-Tom
Junior Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 24 Oct 2010, 11:39
Location: NC

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by N4TAB-Tom » 30 Jan 2012, 19:27

*WRT individuals judged to be suicidal or otherwise suspect, where is the trusted source on either side of the argument? Who decides what? Interval? Who provides the "I'm OK, now" sticker? There is a slippery slope any time a subjective evaluation is required/offered/defined.

Interesting discourse.

Tom

User avatar
Rapier1772
Global Moderator
Posts: 12613
Joined: 20 Aug 2008, 09:00
Location: Kennewick, WA

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by Rapier1772 » 30 Jan 2012, 20:31

I said the suicidal bit because I have a friend who, within the past 2 weeks, has stated that he/she is depressed, mentioned putting a gun to head, hurting self & wanted to buy a gun. At least 3 others have been present when these comments/actions were made. Maybe its for attention, maybe it is serious. If you want to ignore that, go ahead but I take it seriously. Make it a sworn statement, that you have seen/heard this person threatening/doing to harm his/herself & the same penalties for lying as the courts have now.

Interval was a question - I don't know what would be a "correct" interval. Each person would likely be different. As for the "OK sticker" - if that person is still making suicidal comments when the interval is over, not ok. Otherwise, ok.
How to post pics & videos: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6363
Contrary to popular belief, you CAN fix stupid - it's just illegal.

CenCalSplicer
Senior Member
Posts: 1682
Joined: 29 Aug 2009, 18:37
Location: Clovis, CA

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by CenCalSplicer » 30 Jan 2012, 20:54

I also agree with Irish and Rapier.

I will also agree with Ddouglas in referrence to the CCW. I think if you are going to carry concealed then you should have some training.

I feel that if you join the military and are willing to lay down your life for our country then you should be able to purchase at 18.

User avatar
f3rr37
Site Admin
Posts: 14666
Joined: 19 Aug 2008, 12:09

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by f3rr37 » 30 Jan 2012, 22:20

Agree with Irish and Rapier.

Get rid of any mandatory CCW training, start adding firearms training to schools curriculum that way EVERYONE has the opportunity to learn. If you graduate before it is added to school curriculum, then maybe have some sort of training available for free for a year, but I don't think it should be mandatory... The 2nd Amendment is pretty clear to me.

SeaHawkDriver-B
Senior Member
Posts: 989
Joined: 11 Nov 2009, 13:15
Location: Embarked on 2 acres of floating Soverign US Territory
Contact:

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by SeaHawkDriver-B » 31 Jan 2012, 01:56

First thing I would do is lay some groundwork.....

-There should be a difference between being a "citizen" of the United States, and a "civilian" of the United States. I think my position is a bit extreme but it addresses the problems with democracy. Its no more extreme than the positions of Jefferson and Franklin in their time however.

Citizens: Have the right to vote, cannot be convicted of a felony within the last 10 years, cannot EVER have been convicted of a capitol crime such as rape or murder, may carry OPENLY or CCW ANYWHERE, must be at least 20 years of age, must have completed at least 2 years of civil service and/or military service and as part of that service qualified and trained to safely handle weapons, may own any "small arm" whatsoever and purchase any type of ammunition as such, only proof of citizenship required for purchases.

Civilians: Do not have the right to vote, have the right to bear a sanctioned list of arms/ammo after 1) Completing a requisite training course 2) Undergoing a thorough criminal background check and obtaining a license 3) Documenting fingerprints and photograph 4) Undergoing a standard psychiatric evaluation 4) This periodicity for the license is 10 years and it must be fully renewed. May only carry CCW.

Llagoud
Senior Member
Posts: 5266
Joined: 20 Aug 2008, 08:49
custom title: A is A
Location: Buckthorn Ridge

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by Llagoud » 31 Jan 2012, 04:30

On equipment I don't have a line.
If I can build it, it's mine.
If a company or individual can build it and I can afford their asking price, it's mine.

User avatar
Cyberfly
Global Moderator
Posts: 10624
Joined: 19 Aug 2008, 18:44
custom title: Mens Room Attendant
Location: SE OKlahoma

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by Cyberfly » 31 Jan 2012, 05:56

Small arms education should always begin at home, but safety courses should also be taught in school. Shooting competitions should also be a competitive sport, just like baseball, football, soccer, etc.
Any small arms available to our military should be available to the public. No restrictions on magazine sizes. Some ammunition, though, might be better being restricted to military and law enforcement.
At age 18, without felony restriction, any long gun becomes available. At age 20, any handgun with same caveat. Non violent felons may petition the courts to regain 2A rights once their debt is paid.
Non citizens (legal aliens) are not barred from legally owning, however any illegal alien is already a criminal by definition and should be treated as such if discovered with a firearm.
Remember, a Right is only a Right if it is NOT infringed upon. ANY infringement upon your RIGHT makes it a priveledge.
Never confuse 'The will of the Majority' with 'The will of God'.
**This post created with 100% recycled photons!**

User avatar
jgreenberg01
Platinum Member
Posts: 3736
Joined: 17 Jul 2009, 14:32
custom title: FNP-45 Cylon
Location: Palm Coast, FL
Contact:

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by jgreenberg01 » 31 Jan 2012, 06:14

Guns: The only restrictions should be to criminals, aside from that any gun should be available to any law abiding citizen.

NFA items: None. BATFE's arbitrary, conflicting and often discriminatory rulings make no sense and the bureau should not even exist.

Ammo: The only rounds I believe that should be limited are incendiary rounds. As cool as they are and as much as I would love to play with them, I don't believe they have a place in the civilian world.

CCW: Any law abiding citizen who is old enough to serve and die for the country should be able to CCW.

Training: I know many here will disagree with this, but while we do have our 2A rights, guns were designed to destroy/kill things and I believe that there should be minimum safety/handling training. To me, it is a common sense thing, if we have to pass a test to drive a car, which was not designed to kill/destroy (but does), then it makes sense to do the same for guns. Yes, I know this has been debated many times before and I also believe that there is merit to both sides of the argument however... I have seen way too many stupid people doing moronic things with guns. I'm guessing they had no gun education at home although maybe they did and just are morons and I also know you can't cure stupid, buttttt... if classes can keep even just 1% of the morons from hurting other responsible people, then I think it's a sensible step to take.
0100001101101111011011010110010100100000011000010110111001100100001000000111010001100001011010110110010100100000011010010111010000101110

Oldbindlestiff
Gold Member
Posts: 389
Joined: 22 Apr 2011, 08:13
Location: Newport, TN

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by Oldbindlestiff » 31 Jan 2012, 07:02

Quite an interesting thread. When I moved to TN, I was surprised to learn that an eight hour course was required for a CCW permit even if you had a valid permit from a state with reciprocity. The class itself turned out to be worth the money from the perspective of a good discussion of firearm laws in TN. While I had already read the laws, the instructor provided insight into how they are actually enforced.

I was quite surprised to see that about a third of the class had never actually fired a handgun! Totally foreign to me since I grew up in a family of hunters and started shooting about age 8 or 9.

So, should you be able to purchase a firearm if you are of legal age; not a felon or adjudicated mental case? Yes. Should you also get some training before you take it out to Zombieville, yes. Should it be required by law? No.
Karma. Serving up justice one a**hole at a time.

VeTTeMaNC486
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: 09 Jul 2010, 09:08

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 31 Jan 2012, 07:50

My biggest gripes;

1) Locations I can and cannot carry. In my opinion this is about as pointless and stupid as a law can get. I believe that the reason many violent crimes happen in the gun free zones because the law abiding citizens there will be obeying the law and will be defenseless.

2) machine gun registry. Open it. Now.

3) Having sbrs, suppressors, sbs, etc as an NFA item. I believe that everything besides full auto should be for sale at walmart. I believe the process for getting full auto isn't terrible, just can the 200 dollar stamp. Also rid the process of having to have sheriff signature for them.

4) any kind of ammo restrictions. This is stupid.

SeaHawkDriver-B
Senior Member
Posts: 989
Joined: 11 Nov 2009, 13:15
Location: Embarked on 2 acres of floating Soverign US Territory
Contact:

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by SeaHawkDriver-B » 31 Jan 2012, 08:22

Wouldn't it suck to have invested into the $100,000's of dollars in NFA full auto weapons, only for the machine gun registry to be opened tomorrow... and your mint condition H&K MP5 that you paid $35,000 for, is now a used-condition, old-ass, Gen-I POS that barely fetched $250.... LMOA!!!

I agree though, open the machine gun registry.. no more tax stamps for SBR or Suppressors.

Llagoud
Senior Member
Posts: 5266
Joined: 20 Aug 2008, 08:49
custom title: A is A
Location: Buckthorn Ridge

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by Llagoud » 31 Jan 2012, 09:08

No more 'Permission Slips' to exercise rights.
It puts the onus of 'proof of innocence' on a law abidding citizen rather than a 'proof of guilt' requirement on gov.
The ability to regulate and restrict Rights is the ability to take them away.


“The people... shall have the right to keep and bear arms; and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose.”-Thomas Cooley,Treatise on Constitutional Limitations,1868
Treatment of some citizens as 'more equal than others' is a slippery slope.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
-Thomas Jefferson

firestorm248
Gold Member
Posts: 757
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 14:02
Location: Yelm Wa
Contact:

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by firestorm248 » 31 Jan 2012, 10:28

Alright, my views on this subject has seemed to raise a lot of ire lately but here goes my complete view on the subject on where to draw the line. Agree or disagree with me, it’s my personal view.

Gun ownership- legal as long as you have not been convicted of a violent crime or been declared mentally unfit to carry a weapon. Age 18
Full auto weapons- licenses required. Extensive background check. Training required.
Silencers, night vision optics, and other attachments- no additional licenses or training required.
Shotguns- no additional licenses or training
Rifles(semi and bolt action)- no additional licenses or training
Handguns- No additional licenses or training
CCW- training and licenses required, licenses are recognized in all states. Training will cover general go and no go places for CCW.
If you built it- if you personally build it, its legal, goes for firearms or ammunition
AP rounds for pistol- license and training required. Excludes personally built ammo. AP rounds are round specifically designed to penetrate level IIIA body armor.
ATF Function- go after ILLEGAL firearms and weapons and stop focusing on the legal ownership. Be consistent and release a set in stone criteria for legal and illegal firearms and ammunition as opposed to the retarded system they use today. For example 2 gun manufacturers submitting the same firearm and one being rejected as illegal. Ya I saw an article about this.
Stand your ground clause- I believe every state should have this for self defense and it should also cover civil liability. If it’s a good shoot, it’s a good shoot, no lawsuits.
Tax breaks for firearm training- I do think you should be able to write off recreational and quality firearm training on your taxes…call me crazy

I think that covers everything
My main worry is similar to Cyberflys worry, bad guys with bad intentions getting ahold of powerful weapons and doing bad things. I also have a worry of idiots that don’t know what they’re doing killing themselves or someone else. I worked armored cars, did police work in the military and have done about a year in private investigating. There are times that have scared the crap out of me, and knowing the bad guy could have legally of obtained AP ammo is not something I find very comforting. Put yourself in a situation where you have to change $160,000 in ATM money in the worst part of a bad area and see how comforting it is. In the year I worked at brinks there were dozens of robberies nationwide and about half ended in the messenger (guy who delivers or picks up the money) getting shot.

The slippery slope of gun control does worry me but at the same time there needs to be a line where that gun control can’t go any farther. Gun ownership is a right that can’t be taken away however the courts have said that it’s not an absolute right without limitations.

toyslr
Senior Member
Posts: 2020
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 09:56
Location: Cypress, Texas
Contact:

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by toyslr » 31 Jan 2012, 10:50

CCW Permits should require atleast 8hr course with atleast 150 rounds of range time. Handgun basics (move & shoot, cover and shoot, seeking concealment, basic handgun operations) I have seen people run through courses that SHOULD NOT be released to carry staplers, must less weapons.
Once these tests are passed, you should be able to carry in any state, anywhere, anytime, other than air travel.

As for weapons legally owned NFA weapon has never been used in a crime (to my knowledge) You can keep the application and fee but stream line it to once you've been vetted you get a permit and only have to be cleared once.

Everyone should be albe to own a wepaon other than those with violent crime convictions or previous mental health treatment, until cleared by a medical board.

Ammo is ammo! Legal or not you can get what you want for a price

FNtacticalNUT
Junior Member
Posts: 129
Joined: 10 Nov 2011, 13:47
custom title: GOOD ole VIRGINIA
Location: Charlottesville VA

Re: Where you draw the line

Post by FNtacticalNUT » 31 Jan 2012, 14:21

TOYSLR and IRISH summed it up pretty well for me. Great input

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests