Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream wo

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Snaproll
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Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream wo

Post by Snaproll » 16 Oct 2011, 07:43

"Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world"

Did anyone else see this hit piece on youtube? It must have been on ABC news or something

Diane Sawyer was the host. If you didn't see the piece, here's the overview...

They take college students and give them, "more gun training that required in half the states". They select six students with experience ranging from none to "hundreds of hours at a gun range". They give them a Glock with airsoft shells and put them in a classroom concealed carry. They tell them they will be using the gun later in the day. The class they are attending is on "safety gear". The classroom has police officers and ABC new people in the class as plants. The would-be CCW student sits front and center in the "U" shaped classroom. A speaker has them don bulky gloves (like dive gloves or paintball gloves) and a paintball like face mask.

As soon as our CCW student is all suited up, a LEO "gunman" bursts into the room and hollars, "I told-ya I'd be back!", pops two rounds at the 'lecturer' and immediately turns to fire directly at the CCW student participant.

Needless to say, you can imagine what the outcome is of this 'realistic' demonstration. Every CCW shooter gets killed before they can save anyone. One dork gets his gun tangles up in hs shirt and falls down. Another cowers and gets shot. One girl gets off a couple shots and hits the gunman in the leg. They make a big deal out of the fact she thought she hit the guy in the head but it was the leg. Another girl returned fire and, "only cause a flesh wound but hit the white board twice". With her they also made a big deal of "how close she came to nearly hitting another student that ran in front of her", (remember it is a "U" shapped room with the CCW student in the middle). It's not entirely clear how this fit in, but one CCW participant apparently was doing too good returning fire so they have a second BG in the croud located in the guy's peripheral vision also open up on hum too, "hitting him several times in the chest and he didn't even realize he was being fired at".

The conclusions were obvious. All the participants talk about how shocked they were that they totally failed. Diane Sawyer talks about the "real ways" to survive a mass shooting like this. First, "play dead". They site several examples where people lived through being shot by playing dead. (Personally I would prefer not to be shot in the first place). Second, "your cell phone is your friend", because you can call for help. Uh-huh. Perhaps as the BG walks over I could hold the phone out and say, "Hey! It's for you!", hand them the phone and run like hell.

I wanted to post a comment on the thread about how bogus the whole hit piece was. The CCW folks literally have their hands tied. The BG, who is a firearms trained LEO, after capping the prof with one or two shots, somehow has radar to go right after our hapless CCW guinea pig... who is seated front and center, has these welding mittins on plus a face mask, and has random people choreographed to run between hun and the BG. I guess if he did somehow manage to get the upper hand, there is a second BG plant alongside of him to shoot him execution style... so the 'scientific outcome' would be what they need to justify their conclusions.

There were over 100 pages of posts. I finally got bored trying to find the end! Every single one of them I read condemning the piece. Many said, "put an authentic CCW person in there that trains and is prepared". Perhaps, but I doubt it. The deck was stacked so badly against the participants, I doubt that anyone except Rambo or James Bond could have faired better.

Let's face it, no matter how well you are "trained" you are, there are just certain situations that will humanly be beyond your control and you most likely will die. I don't consider myself "highly trained" by any stretch of the imagination. I read and talk to others, practice with my pieces, take training and try to pick up useful tips and skills for a situation I hope never to encounter. If I took part in this "experiment" I would most likely "fail" as well.

Here's my thought, and what they miss in this "informative news" piece. I would like them to redo this exercise and put a trained CCW participant in the hall outside the classroom that was armed, did not have welder's gloves and a face pask on, heard the shooting and came into the classroom behind the shooter. What would have been the outcome then? What is the "backup BG" had been another CCW participant and the shooter had been forced to deal with two (or more) CCW threats? For that matter, replace the BG shooter. Instead of a trained LEO walking in with the gun shooting the prof, how about some hood moron holding the gun upside down to look cool and fashing gang signs at the same time. Better yet, why not use the dorky kid that got the gun tangled up in his shirt? I probably could have tackled him and taken the gun away and slapped him in the head with it without even having to fire a shot.

I honestly can't see a BG being any better trained or better prepared that a CCW. In most cases I've seen, both act like the keystone cops regardless of the level of training. Let's face it, everybody would be scared <profanity>less. All things being equal, the BG is going to have the advantage. They know their 'intent' from the start. They aren't going to care about bystanders or the legal ramifications of drawing. A CCW has to take the time to second guess the situation, worry about bystanders and mentally judge that the four legal elements are present. One on one, all things being equal, I'd say the CCW would be lucky to pull a draw.

Now I want to take you back to the classroom and the scenario with the TV news piece. You are in the hall and you hear shooting. You look in the classroom and see the back of a shooter popping students with a hand gun. First you need to decide if you want to run away or get involved. If you run away, you are probably making the smartest legal choice as long as you can live with the memories of the screaming and shooting. If you decide to try and "do something" and you reach into your pocket, what would you rather find, your CCW... or your cell phone so you can call Diane Sawyer and tell her she's a moron...

smpsmp
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Re: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a drea

Post by smpsmp » 16 Oct 2011, 09:57

Well said. Diane Sawyer is an idiot. Let alone I hated her before, after I saw this story a little while ago it only increased said hatred.

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Re: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a drea

Post by Ariac » 16 Oct 2011, 10:44

Yeah I have seen this a couple times, my biggest issue is that they treat such things like that happen in a vacume. It wasn't a very realistic study in my opinion. They give them equipment they are not familiar with, force them into a stressful situation where they haven't trained to muscle memory with. Also, what about a ccw holder in a classroom where the event didn't take place. They would have enough time to react and defend themselves and others. That is what I mean about a vacume. There are secondary events that take place after the initial problem where a ccw holder could be effective, even if they didn't have time to react during the primary event.

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Re: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a drea

Post by Rapier1772 » 16 Oct 2011, 12:15

The piece is called "If I Had a Gun" & it was meant to prove the "fallacy" of a CCW holder preventing the mass shootings at schools. Its been making the rounds for a while & even has a thread here from when it first came out (but good luck finding it - too many common words to use search).
You make many of the same points we did - a crazed gunman is not likely to have any significant gun training, and more importantly - will not know where the CCW holder is were the two biggest ones. The oversized shirt getting in the way, the gloves making it harder to feel... Complaints as to any kind of accuracy in the scenario were plentiful to say the least.
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Re: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a drea

Post by Snaproll » 16 Oct 2011, 14:38

I'm an instructor at a Wisconsin technical college. On November 1 we can start applying for Wisconsin CCW permits. I already have the Utah permit.

I know what goes on at a college. There is no doubt in my mind I can see a shooting taking place at one, especially a technical college like ours. We get a lot of kids that can't afford a four year school and in the last three years we have seen a HUGE surge of folks that are in their 40's, 50's and even 60's that have worked their whole lives at some plant, have been layed off and are trying to reenter the work force where jobs are far and few between, competition is fierce and salaries are far below what they used to make.

You have kids that have always been told by their parents and high school teachers that they are the best and the brightest winners and each and every one of them was given a trophy... as they were passed along from grade to grade. Now they can't spell, they can't read, they don't know how to learn, they really don't want to learn, they just want someone to pay their way through life. Unfortunately I sometimes have to break their little ego bubble by informing them that they are really not the genius 4.0 student they have always been told they are. Some are not very happy with this dose of 'reality'. Do I worry that some disgruntled kid will try and 'even the score' because I 'dissed' him? It's possible. I joke with folks, "The only difference between a cop and me is that the cop can shoot back". There is more truth in that than I would like to admit.

I've had mentally unstable students. I remember one guy I flunked. He sat playing on internet all year and then when he couldn't figure out how to do the final project got mad because "I wouldn't help him". I just kept telling him to review my powerpoints because I wasn't going to waste any more time with this moron. He asked what he grade was and I told him he flunked. He couldn't believe it. He was shocked that I wouldn't give him a passing grade or partial points, "just for trying". In disgust he left the classroom saying, "I'm going to go kill myself!" I was a heartbeat away from saying, "Darwin will thank you, just don't take anyone else with ya!". But of course I couldn't... I called the counselors and they in turn called the police to go round this kid up. They knew who he was because he has "emotional problems"...

Then there was this other kid that was flunking out. Towards the last few weeks in the semester he was overheard talking to another kid about how "cool" he thought Columbine was. Uh-huh. I had this kid in one of my classes. He was oily and greasy. I hated touching the mouse on his computer. YUCK, it was "slick". He always had a big backpack with him. Needless to say, the last few weeks of class I watched him like a hawk...

Then there was the time with the paranoid schizophrenic who was off her meds. That one was freaky. It was a woman probably in her 40's. She sent emails that was literally right out of Russel Crow's, A Beautiful Mind. Really creepy stuff... What follows is san actual letter from this woman. I still had it in my email records because it was so weird. This is her email...

****************************************
"Further explanation--

As per-conversation I am a federal witness which involves child pornography. Men involved with this have received the death penalty a long time ago (8 years) However, I accidently came across an internet child porn site.

This was reported. Last weed a 19 year old, who looks like my son, and has the same career interest was murdered. It is one thing for them to come after me--I am well trained, I know what to avoid, who to watch out for.

When they strike people I care about, like family members and relatives and friends, it is going much to far. They have no training nor do they have any idea of who to watch out for. Being questioned recently about who I like--your name was one they brought up, not me. According to military intelligence the number one murder style they want to use is the infamous crime of passion. To assist in my safety they have me hypnotized not to be so lonely that I would commit a sin, as well as hypnotized to greatly reduce any jealousy to prevent me from starting a violent action that would result in my death.

To keep everyone as safe as possible I do not like anyone, not even my children right now. My dad may be at the greatest risk. It is sad for me that I may need to stop calling my children and put off visiting them to keep the three of us safer.

At this moment, and this will only last for a moment? I am receiving strength from strangers' smiles. For the first time in my life I am afraid and unhappy. The combination does not suit me well.

Let me apologize for burdening you with this, however, an explanation is polite and necessary. I am hoping that this is just "insanity" on my part."
****************************************

We called the "health professionals" and the cops. She was judged 'not to be a threat' as long as she was on her meds. I told them I didn't want her in the class anymore. They told me, well really didn't give me a choice... I HAD to have her in my class. She acted like nothing happened and dropped out after a couple more weeks. I sighed with relief.

With CCW coming to Wisconsin I'll be able to keep my 92FS in my car, (gun vault chained under the passenger seat) but of course would not be able to have anything in my office, (other than a letter opener that was my 10 year service gift). Probably "best" that way given how little training is required to get a CCW here in Wisconsin. A Hunter's Safety course, military service or a training class "of at least four hours" (and no range time requirement) and you are good to go. So to be honest, I am a bit creeped out about some of the folks that will be carrying and do little else to follow up on the responsibility. I can see guns clattering across restroom floors. I can see them getting stolen from cars outside of bars that don't allow CW because the owners are too cheap to buy a $100 dollar gun vault and think their car console is "good enough". Little CCW purses that are left at the local Starbucks with a loaded gun inside. The occasional moron that wants to "back up a cop" during a DUI stop. Hopefully any of these morons will get quickly weeded out before they hurt anyone or forget about CCW once little pink handled guns with lasers are no longer in vogue.

Anyway... I just got done putting about 250 rounds of 5.7 down range today. I shoot every week or two and try to work on something different each time. Today it was load up two rounds in two mags, double-tap two, saftey on, drop the mag, load and cycle the second mag, safety off, tap two, reload the mags. Amazing how that muscle memory thing works when you practice and learn.

Well, I have to clean the fiveseven. I just got some time to write today because the wife is out of town, road trip to Kansas City for work. Going through Iowa and Missouri she will at least now be legal to have her LC9 close at hand.

I think CCW is definitely a right but it's also a serious responsibility to execute wisely. I'll keep you guys posted as to what's happening here in Wiscosnin...

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Re: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a drea

Post by Rapier1772 » 16 Oct 2011, 18:44

Found our thread - guess I am better than I thought :laugh: It had video links but they're dead now

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a drea

Post by ynoty3k » 17 Oct 2011, 05:43

We all had issues with that piece, and it seems like this was the only published counter-piece, which has since been taken down by fox news.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2009/04/n ... bamas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks to web.archive.org "the wayback machine"

http://web.archive.org/web/200904191950 ... nt_rigged/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a drea

Post by SmartAsCarrots » 18 Oct 2011, 11:26

As they work down the scale of weapons people can use to defend themselves they will next they will give chocolate truncheons to a police officer and ask them to demonstrate the uses of same. Then display more breath-taking intellectual dishonesty by claiming this is scientific proof that they don't work and should therefore be removed as an intermediate weapon. *sigh*

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Re: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a drea

Post by User42 » 18 Oct 2011, 21:45

Next, they should have a piece about why you should not run from the police. Put the students in the middle of a giant parking lot, and give them a 10 second head start to run from a police cruiser.

Seriously though, if I had been there I would have objected. Why not have everyone seated normally, and have 3 students randomly in the crowd. The police/bg wouldn't even need to have a gun (to negate the fact that that everyone can't be wearing masks), and just say if he points his fingers at someone and yells bang they are down. If he gets hit with an airsoft, he is down. $1 says the bad guy loses 9 times out of 10.
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