Vs. Black bear?

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Ariac
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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by Ariac » 30 Mar 2010, 10:50


VITALIY
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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by VITALIY » 30 Mar 2010, 12:37

Still, Chuck is no match to Bruce LEE :p Bruce would have killed that bear with dragon's tail kick :p

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by Vafrum » 31 Mar 2010, 20:04

Wow that Chuck vs. Bear video was so powerful.

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by Valorius » 26 Apr 2010, 04:04

Hmmm...shooting bears with my sidearm?

I have a couple boxes of Double Tap 147gr+P FMJ flat nose for my HK P7 9mm. Penetration in gel is 40" plus.

I carry that stuff when i'm hiking around on my uncle's property in the mountains of upstate Pennsylvania. All we have there is black bears.

HARDLY ideal, but a 9mm is what i got in the handgun department(mostly i'm a city dweller), and i suspect that particular loading is by far the best round (meaning barely adequate at all) in 9mm for shooting at big, angry animals.

If i ever run into a Black bear up there that for some reason insists on me shooting it with my pistol on a nature walk(very unlikely), i plan to take head shots. Lots of them. And pray. Honestly, one head shot with that round should kill pretty much anything in Pennsylvania. Just need to actually score the head shot. Hence the praying... ;)

Against a brown bear, from what i've read, no way in hell i'd mess around with anything less than a .44 Magnum with big, heavy solids. Why even risk it? Seriously, if i was in brown bear country, if at all possible, i would bring a light weight semi auto 18" shotgun loaded with slugs.

Cougars on the other hand are supposedly quite fragile. We also have those here. I've never ran across one, but i would feel perfectly safe using any gun considered suitable for self defense against people, including a 5.7, my 9mm with any decent self defense ammo, or even a .380 loaded with premium modern ammunition. (Corbon DPX in particular has shown devastating results in gel tests and utilizes a well proven solid copper hollowpoint hunting bullet). Even a .38 spl snubby with good modern 158gr+P JHP ammunition should do the trick on a cougar at short range. I'm not recommending one...but it should work in a pinch.

Of course shot placement is always king. An eye shot with almost anything will kill, well, almost anything... ;)

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by blueorison » 26 Apr 2010, 06:16

Valorius wrote:Hmmm...shooting bears with my sidearm?

I have a couple boxes of Double Tap 147gr+P FMJ flat nose for my HK P7 9mm. Penetration in gel is 40" plus.
uhhh whoa!
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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by AKStevoUSN » 26 Apr 2010, 07:58

Have to say, living in AK all my life, I have never heard of bullets ricocheting off a bear's head in a self defense situation and leading to the shooter's death.
The standard carry is a .454, 44mag or .500 for real backup, but i feel fine taking my FsN out where grizz encounters would be less probable. Black bears are like big dogs compared to a Brown/Grizz/Kodiak. Not that they are not dangerous, but the 5.7, along with most other pistol rounds should be fine.

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by panzermk2 » 26 Apr 2010, 08:17

Your P7 has to only be effective on the guy standing next to you.
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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by Valorius » 26 Apr 2010, 13:00

blueorison wrote:
Valorius wrote:Hmmm...shooting bears with my sidearm?

I have a couple boxes of Double Tap 147gr+P FMJ flat nose for my HK P7 9mm. Penetration in gel is 40" plus.
uhhh whoa!
Yep, that' what i said when i saw it's penetration performance too....whoa!!!
That round won't leave a particularly big hole, but it will leave a very deep one. Doubletap markets the round exclusively for Trail defense.

Link for Doubletap 147gr+P FMJ-FP trail defense:

Caliber : 9mm+P
Bullet : Montana Gold Full Metal Jacket Flat Point
Ballistics : 147gr @ 1135fps / 421ft. lbs. from a G17.
Glock 19 velocity - 1120fps.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalo ... cts_id=385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By no means ideal, but if all you have is a 9mm, it is as good as you're going to find in that caliber IMO.
panzermk2 wrote:Your P7 has to only be effective on the guy standing next to you.
Joe: "Bill....dag...look...a brown bear is coming right for us!"
Bill: "Joe, get ready to run."
Joe: "Bro what for, you can't outrun a bear."
Bill: "I don't have to outrun the bear. Just you..."

;)

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by fd57 » 26 Apr 2010, 14:04

UDAP (and probably others) just plain works. So if we know that it works, and we know that most folks who attempt to discharge their firearm at a bear end up with injuries, why even think about it or debate? Why not just take UDAP with ya into the wilderness? You don't have to worry about caliber, loading, reloading, shot placement, or shooting a person. Simply aim the cannister and let loose :)

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by Valorius » 27 Apr 2010, 08:42

Pepper spray doesn't always work, even on people. Probably be a good idea to carry both.

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by Grantness » 27 Apr 2010, 11:00

Lets say you have a smallish black bear (less than 300 lbs) and its 40-50 yards away and begins to charge you. After shooting my .357 Ruger Security Six and my FsN at 50 yard targets a couple weeks ago....I realized it would be very hard for me to hit the bear with 6 shots from the .357 yet I would have little trouble hitting the bear with 20 (or 30) rounds out of the FsN before it gets to me. The .357 took time to aim, and even then it wasnt very accurate compared to the FsN. It took a long time to get back on target after each shot w/ the .357 as well.

I dont know about you, but in that situation I would rather have 20-30 5.7x28 rounds (Trident, TSX, or Vmax reloads of course) on target than 4 or 5 shots at best from my .357. I know bears have thick skulls, but with the new Trident bullets, a BBS, or a TSX, Im sure you could penetrate it.

However, I will reiterate. A FsN should not be your primary weapon if you think you are going to encounter a Black Bear. Its not really appropriate. If you get surprised by a bear at close range, you're better off with a powerful gun that can put it down with one or two shots.

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by f3rr37 » 27 Apr 2010, 11:29

A black bear can run 25-30mph, which is ~37-44ft/sec. If it charges from 50yards, you've got 3.4-4.0sec to dump as much lead into it as fast as you can. Never really looked at the numbers before, but they're pretty quick!

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by blueorison » 27 Apr 2010, 12:21

Valorius wrote:Pepper spray doesn't always work, even on people. Probably be a good idea to carry both.
Great point. I agree completely. I think pepper spray is to people situations like slapping an attacker open handed. I personally think it's a joke. Unless you get high up there with the burning pepper sprays... now we're talkin.

However, Bears aren't people. Their sense of smell is painfully acute.

I would, obviously, do the prudent thing and carry both. However, if the bear IS charging 30 yds away, don't you think I'd shoot first if it were charging me? :)
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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Apr 2010, 12:42

I have never found it posted on you tube. About 1975 from a copter ( Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom) they filmed a bear chasing down a deer along a mountain side in and out of the upper tree line. Over giant boulders and fallen trees. Bear won.


Black Bear
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Brown bear

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sWmXu87zr7g&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sWmXu87zr7g&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]
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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by Grantness » 27 Apr 2010, 12:49

f3rr37 wrote:A black bear can run 25-30mph, which is ~37-44ft/sec. If it charges from 50yards, you've got 3.4-4.0sec to dump as much lead into it as fast as you can. Never really looked at the numbers before, but they're pretty quick!
yea, it sounds to me like you would be extremely lucky to get 3 accurate shots off with a large caliber revolver if its charging at those speeds (from 40-50 yards). With my Security Six, I have to cock it after every shot b/c using the double action throws off the aim A LOT.

Hypothetically speaking, I think you could put more total kinetic energy on target w/ a FsN (in that particular scenario) than a .357mag. Then again, a good semi-auto 10mm could prob put even more energy on target...

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by f3rr37 » 27 Apr 2010, 12:52

WTF, that deer didn't even move, it just laid down and said eat me.

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by blueorison » 27 Apr 2010, 12:54

Uhh why didn't those idiots tell the landowner his property was getting killed instead of watching and laughing.

Sigh.

Grant; if it were a black bear, vs the mass; I would go for penetration of matter vs damage done. My reasoning is that the big mass won't bother to check what holes and how big they are when it's charging you; you really have to stop it using shot placement. :furious:

Fuzzy: looked like a newborn. Still hadn't gotten its legs yet.
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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by Hobknob » 27 Apr 2010, 12:59

How bout just carrying an M32 MGL with some good ammo?
A little conspicuous, but it'd probably get the job done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_MGL
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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by f3rr37 » 27 Apr 2010, 13:20

blueorison wrote: Fuzzy: looked like a newborn. Still hadn't gotten its legs yet.
Good eye, I wasn't paying much attention :P

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Re: Vs. Black bear?

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Apr 2010, 18:24

It was also having trouble with the very deep snow.
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