Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, Santa?

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blueorison
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Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, Santa?

Post by blueorison » 02 Dec 2011, 17:52

Andrew mirrors thoughts I've been having for the past few years now. Tired of every other company claiming to be the "solution" to some imaginary problem. I've posted about this before.

I follow his blog because he

1. Actually shoots the guns he reviews and is a proficient shooter; which is necessary to understand why weapons should work a certain way, not just be able to be "sub-MOA", or "look cool"
2. Writes with an educated brain, and knows the difference between clips and magazines
3. Honest, unlike many gun magazine writers that do not include faults of the gun
4. Well-traveled

DISCLAIMER: These are my opinions (you would think), and below are his. If you're offended, next time I will include Gummi-bears. :p :thumb:

http://vuurwapenblog.com/2011/12/02/my- ... facturers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Dear Santa,

I haven't asked for anything from you in a long time, mainly because my life is pretty good and I don't really need anything. This year, though, I'd really like for my wish to come true.

Please prevent new AR-15 manufacturers from starting up.

I know it's a terribly anti-free-market thing to wish for, but I'm getting really tired of all the new AR-15 companies out there. It was hard enough when we only had a few dozen to choose from - now, everyone with an LLC and a buddy who works in a machine shop can make "world class tactical rifles." None of them have any imagination when it comes to names, either - it's almost a requirement to have the word "Black" in the name, because black equals tactical, and tactical equals money in today's firearms market.

The names of the rifles aren't any more imaginative. They most likely include the numbers 4 or 16 (or 4 and 16), or are somehow related to Greek mythology. Hey, the Zulus were pretty hardcore warriors, why can't we get some rifles named after them?

Of course, everyone is "mil-spec." Why? Because their carbine model generally resembles an M4. Never mind what the word means. In fact, some AR-15 manufacturers don't have a clue what mil-spec actually means.

I don't care what operating system they use, either. Windows 8? Short stroke gas piston? Doesn't matter, make it stop, please. Whether I'm a couch potato or an SF type who fast ropes out of bed in the morning, there are about a million things more important than whether my rifle can fire 10,000 rounds at the cyclic rate before the barrel melts, or whether it's "sub-MOA."

The ACR was a joke wrapped in a fat suit inside an enigma. The SCAR was a viable alternative, if you feed your purebred dogs caviar. No one is really sure if the XCR-M exists. The Sig 556 - no, forget that one. But the others were at least different. The companies put their best into the design. They didn't just say "hey, we could probably do that too" and proceed to confuse the hell out of innocent bloggers with their infuriatingly similar names and business plans.

I know that some of these budding AR-15 manufacturers are probably run by good people, but please, leave them prints for some other firearm under the tree this year.

Thanks,

Andrew Tuohy

PS. I am still waiting on that thing I asked for in 1989."
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by Mister Freeze » 02 Dec 2011, 18:05

Can I, like Congress, tag on my own request? No more 1911 makers either!!

On a serious note, though, how does one become a viable firearms tester and/or writer?

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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by flyingirish04 » 02 Dec 2011, 18:13

You basically have to agree to never, ever, ever write a poor review. That is the problem with gun reviews, they are just bought and paid for ads.

On the letter, its funny. I love how is cool with the Sig (I am reading that right, right?) If not, F him! ;)
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by Rapier1772 » 02 Dec 2011, 18:15

I wouldn't mind another 6.5 Grendel manufacturer or two though. By the way, what was the name of the one in Idaho?
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by blueorison » 02 Dec 2011, 18:17

flyingirish04 wrote:You basically have to agree to never, ever, ever write a poor review. That is the problem with gun reviews, they are just bought and paid for ads.

On the letter, its funny. I love how is cool with the Sig (I am reading that right, right?) If not, F him! ;)
Seriously. I have never read one poor review.

I think most guns made by the Swiss are top notch in quality. Andrew seems to agree with Sig manufacturing.
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by flyingirish04 » 02 Dec 2011, 19:25

Yeah, it is my major gripe with the gun industry. They can't just be honest and rip a gun when it needs to be ripped. That is why whenever I see a person talking about how a gun got such great reviews, I kinda chuckle.
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by fooschnickens » 02 Dec 2011, 19:59

Was just having this same discussion the other day on another board.

Rampant AR fanboyism has dragged firearms development to a crawl and is making developing any revolutionary platform a moot point because they won't make money because it isn't an AR.

I'm all for the free market weeding out bad designs but at this point something that's been "good enough" for the better part of 50 years is just choking out other options to the point of being considered monopolistic.

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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by flyingirish04 » 02 Dec 2011, 21:08

Rapier1772 wrote:I wouldn't mind another 6.5 Grendel manufacturer or two though. By the way, what was the name of the one in Idaho?
Several companies make Grendals. The one in ID you are referring to is probably Quality Arms. They are decent.
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by SeaHawkDriver-B » 03 Dec 2011, 05:00

I sold my last AR last year to a guy on this forum. Good riddance. Every gun show you go to is inundated with nothing but AR after AR, its become so senseless to even keep track of the "who's who" that I dont even bother looking at a single one. I also agree that coming up with a "solution" to a 45 year old design that was NEVER a viable replacement for the M14 to begin with (Aramalite M-16A) has become this country's obsession. If we'd go to a 6.5 or .300AAC as the new standard in America I'd poop my pants, but we're not, and primarily out of some sort of fanatasism with the AR. Even if we HAD to stick with the 5.56, how about a rifle that is so innovative that it kicks the crap out of the competition for half the coin? Other industries do it all the time, but the firearms industry is in an AR rut... and the fanboys.. oh god the fanboys... the 12-30 y/o demographic that work in the gun shops or play Modern Warfare... they'll pretend like it was the AR that saved their ass in 'Nam till they're blue in the face.

We just need one innovative company to come along and put the AR back in second place. Thank God for people like Kel Tec, if they'd just up their quality and be willing to work with the new catridges, I think their designs would take off.

He took a dig a the Sig 556... Ok, reasonable enough, its heavy and its made of lots of metal. Buts, its a short-stroke gas piston rifle with the realiability, functionality, and durabilty of an AK. Its served the Swiss for decades and has a reputation as an absolute rock in combat. I also have a sub 10" barrel on mine and it folds up into something you could fit in a damn microwave, costs negligably more than an AR, takes NATO mags. My other NON-AR's are a Steyr AUGA3 and a Sig DMR/LMG.

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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by fooschnickens » 03 Dec 2011, 07:20

I noticed the jabs at the 55x and SCAR as well. While the comment on the Sig is somewhat merited (all the US made 55x rifles are riddled with QC issues), the actual swiss-made rifles are nothing short of perfect. The issue, however, is that you pay a substantial premium for those models. I'm not quite sure what he meant about the SCAR. Whether he's referring to it being maintenance-heavy or requiring high quality ammo. I've experienced neither with mine as I've shot it a lot when dirty and run all types of ammo through it down to shitty tula/brown bear with no issues. Only malfunction I've managed over several thousand rounds was a double feed that was eventually determined to be caused by a mag with a bent feed lip because the same malfunction was duplicated several times on other rifles.

We can only hope that the new rifle that beretta is developing will have a decent chance. It brings a host of nifty features to the table and if they can keep the cost at or under $2k it'll be a massive hit methinks.


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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by romer522 » 03 Dec 2011, 08:36

Only gun that had any chance of changing the game was the ACR, and if it were a pound lighter and half as much $$ it would have.

I half agree with the OP, too many companies are trying to manufacture complete rifles and market them, but I do not think in the slightest that there are too many high end part manufacturers. There is still new stuff coming to market that is entirely new, or with way better pricing than what it is competing against.




Have you guys thought about it this way? The more companies out there that know how to make ARs, the harder it is to regulate them, the harder it is to ban them, and the harder it is to shut down the US ability to manufacture combat-worthy weapons if we ever NEED people out there making them.

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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by srt-4_jon » 03 Dec 2011, 08:40

I dont really see why anyone would want less companies making guns.

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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by panzermk2 » 03 Dec 2011, 08:57

WOW that Beretta has some really neat features. I like the three mag catches. It would make transitioning from an FAL/AK platform much easier.
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by blueorison » 03 Dec 2011, 10:31

SeaHawkDriver-B wrote:I sold my last AR last year to a guy on this forum. Good riddance. Every gun show you go to is inundated with nothing but AR after AR, its become so senseless to even keep track of the "who's who" that I dont even bother looking at a single one. I also agree that coming up with a "solution" to a 45 year old design that was NEVER a viable replacement for the M14 to begin with (Aramalite M-16A) has become this country's obsession. If we'd go to a 6.5 or .300AAC as the new standard in America I'd poop my pants, but we're not, and primarily out of some sort of fanatasism with the AR. Even if we HAD to stick with the 5.56, how about a rifle that is so innovative that it kicks the crap out of the competition for half the coin? Other industries do it all the time, but the firearms industry is in an AR rut... and the fanboys.. oh god the fanboys... the 12-30 y/o demographic that work in the gun shops or play Modern Warfare... they'll pretend like it was the AR that saved their ass in 'Nam till they're blue in the face.

We just need one innovative company to come along and put the AR back in second place. Thank God for people like Kel Tec, if they'd just up their quality and be willing to work with the new catridges, I think their designs would take off.

He took a dig a the Sig 556... Ok, reasonable enough, its heavy and its made of lots of metal. Buts, its a short-stroke gas piston rifle with the realiability, functionality, and durabilty of an AK. Its served the Swiss for decades and has a reputation as an absolute rock in combat. I also have a sub 10" barrel on mine and it folds up into something you could fit in a damn microwave, costs negligably more than an AR, takes NATO mags. My other NON-AR's are a Steyr AUGA3 and a Sig DMR/LMG.
I like Steyrs. The new AUGA3's are beautiful and very functional. I've only shot the clones (MSAR), wish I would get some time with the real thing. Now the SIG DMR I have had much fun with; it's a large gun but the trigger is great and it is very well made.
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by flyingirish04 » 03 Dec 2011, 12:52

SeaHawkDriver-B wrote:I sold my last AR last year to a guy on this forum. Good riddance. Every gun show you go to is inundated with nothing but AR after AR, its become so senseless to even keep track of the "who's who" that I dont even bother looking at a single one. I also agree that coming up with a "solution" to a 45 year old design that was NEVER a viable replacement for the M14 to begin with (Aramalite M-16A) has become this country's obsession. If we'd go to a 6.5 or .300AAC as the new standard in America I'd poop my pants, but we're not, and primarily out of some sort of fanatasism with the AR. Even if we HAD to stick with the 5.56, how about a rifle that is so innovative that it kicks the crap out of the competition for half the coin? Other industries do it all the time, but the firearms industry is in an AR rut... and the fanboys.. oh god the fanboys... the 12-30 y/o demographic that work in the gun shops or play Modern Warfare... they'll pretend like it was the AR that saved their ass in 'Nam till they're blue in the face.

We just need one innovative company to come along and put the AR back in second place. Thank God for people like Kel Tec, if they'd just up their quality and be willing to work with the new catridges, I think their designs would take off.

He took a dig a the Sig 556... Ok, reasonable enough, its heavy and its made of lots of metal. Buts, its a short-stroke gas piston rifle with the realiability, functionality, and durabilty of an AK. Its served the Swiss for decades and has a reputation as an absolute rock in combat. I also have a sub 10" barrel on mine and it folds up into something you could fit in a damn microwave, costs negligably more than an AR, takes NATO mags. My other NON-AR's are a Steyr AUGA3 and a Sig DMR/LMG.
The 5.56 is fine given the proper ammo. If you have had to use it, you know it is fine for a man killer. Extremely accurate as well. Is it the ideal, of course not. Put it this way, if you think a 5.56 isn't enough, they there is no way you can think the 5.7 is enough. The simple reason why the other AR cartridges haven't been adopted is because they aren't worth the money to convert. Not at all. I love the 6.5 Grendel, but it isn't worth converting an entire military to it when that military is still the best int he world with the 5.56. Same reason why the SCAR failed with the military, too expensive to convert for what you get with the conversion.

Specialized units will always get the exact weapons they want. Rank and file military is served just fine with the M4 variants and the 5.56.

And the guy wasn't attacking the Sig, he was saying it was the only one that he was cool with, if I am reading it right.

As far as ARs, I think it is wonderful so many companies are in the market. I wish all gun designs had as much interest. Better for the industry, better for gun owners.
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by flyingirish04 » 03 Dec 2011, 12:56

panzermk2 wrote:WOW that Beretta has some really neat features. I like the three mag catches. It would make transitioning from an FAL/AK platform much easier.

It is very similar to the Benelli version gas system, as is to be expected. They made it much more functional though, looks like an ACR. I would stick with the FAL though, if it is priced like an ACR. I personally, I don't like the whole plasticy look. It is too SCI-FI or something. It took me a while to love my FsN for the same reason. I bought solely for the 5.7 capability. I am probably in the minority on this one.
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by flyingirish04 » 03 Dec 2011, 13:07

romer522 wrote:Only gun that had any chance of changing the game was the ACR, and if it were a pound lighter and half as much $$ it would have.

I half agree with the OP, too many companies are trying to manufacture complete rifles and market them, but I do not think in the slightest that there are too many high end part manufacturers. There is still new stuff coming to market that is entirely new, or with way better pricing than what it is competing against.




Have you guys thought about it this way? The more companies out there that know how to make ARs, the harder it is to regulate them, the harder it is to ban them, and the harder it is to shut down the US ability to manufacture combat-worthy weapons if we ever NEED people out there making them.
:agree:
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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by ChuckD » 03 Dec 2011, 16:06

IIRC, that blog loves the 5.45 AR15.

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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by Wollychop » 03 Dec 2011, 17:25

Personally, I would love to see*more* companies making ARs and other 5.56 platforms. More companies to enter the arena of the free-market, and more to be in play to experience market pressures and respond to customer demand.

Many would go out of business, but competition is good.

And yes, I would love to see more ultra critical reviews. What I would really like is to see more "torture test" reviews that bring a weapon to the point of critical failure. Test a wide variety of magazines and ammunitions and shoot so much that key components fail (bolt keys, whatever). I'm not talking about some 350 lbs tactiboy who hasn't even served in law enforcement much less the military talking about "tactical applications", I'm talking about benching a rifle and putting rounds through it till it fails or destroys itself. Show performance at various ranges to, say, 600 meters, with a variety of optics and conditions.

A lot of people think that if a rifle shoots at 1 MOA at 100 yards it will do the same at 300, 600... Well, not the case. Show us the full spectrum of applications. Show us the rifle shooting 55gr, 62gr. 75gr, etc ammunition. Shoot with the cheapest, dirtiest ammo you can find.

And then blow the sucker up. A squib followed by a full power round impacting a bullet stuck four or five inches down the barrel, or shoot with a barrel jammed with dirt in the far end simulating someone who took a tumble while on the run attempting to squeeze off a round. Blow the hell out of the upper receiver and let's see what happens. Can you reuse the lower? Is it all shot to hell? Would the shooter be injured?

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Re: Christmas wish - No more AR15 Manufacturers, please, San

Post by srt-4_jon » 03 Dec 2011, 17:30

daniel defense did a pretty decent torture test. granted, it was a company doing a torture test with their rifle, but it was very cool.

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