First 5.7 x 28 Loads

[Walkalong]

I bought that AR 57 upper I have been salivating over. I bought some Lyman dies to try out, as well as a Lyman shellholder. I should have bought the RCBS shellholder because the Lyman will not work on my RCBS hand primer until I modify it.

As it was I had to modify the Lyman seater. I had to remove some material from the top of the die as well as the seater stem. I chucked it up in my little Emco 5 lathe to face off the top of the die after I hacksawed a piece off, and then to modify the stem. It had a “450S” stem, and it would not seat the bullets deep enough.

I decided to start with True Blue since there was data for it and it is generally recommended, Hornady 40 Gr V Max, and Dogtown 34 Gr HP bullets. I used 6.1 Grs True Blue for both loads. I will branch out later powder and bullet wise.

I decided to seat the 40 Gr V Max bullets at 1.580. That used all of the neck. I got close. They all came out at 1.581 to 1.582. Very consistent. I used the same seater setting for the Dogtown 34 Gr bullets, because it was convenient, and that worked out to 1.469 to 1.472. That got all the bearing surface, and a tad more, of the 34 Gr bullets in the neck, but I may try a bit longer O.A.L. for it.

I used a couple of cases to experiment and decided to not use the expander die. It only made a few thousandths difference, the bullets still seated easily, even the flat base ones, and I figured the more neck tension the better. Only one flat based bullet gave trouble. I may not have chamfered that case well.

Someone posted that you do not need to remove the crimp with this caliber, but I found if you do priming goes much better. I just gave each PP a light twist from my RCBS deburring tool. It was not even enough to remove all of the crimp, but it still made priming easier with just that little bit.

I hope to be able to get out and function test these babies tomorrow.

I mounted a S.P.O.T. red dot on it. I was going to use the Strike Fire, but the mount that came with it was defective. I am able to install and remove the Mag with the sight mounted as pictured. It does not clear by a lot, but it does. I am going to mount a vertical grip and let her rip.






http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... ueBlue.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... 4GrPic.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... htPic1.jpg

[fatherfoof]

Good luck. Let us know how you make out at the range.

[Walkalong]

Just came home from the range. Met a nice 18 year old kid. He really liked shooting my DW 1911 in 9MM. "Sweeet" was how he described it. He really got all big eyed and "whoaaa....cool" when I showed him the AR 57.... Priceless.

Anyway. I shot the two loads using 6.1 Grs of True Blue. I shot one round with the 34 Gr Dogtown bullet and 7.0 Grs of SR 4759 (case full) I tried SR 4759 because a case full of it was 7.0 Grs vs a case full of 5477, 8.9 Grs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

34 Gr Dogtown bullet and 6.1 Grs True Blue with a WSP primer. 1.470 O.A.L. - 10 Shots

Hi-2351
Lo-2302
Avg-2327
ES-49
SD-16

40 Gr V Max bullet and 6.1 Grs True Blue with a WSP primer. 1.580 O.A.L. - 10 Shots

Hi-2271
Lo-2240
Avg-2253
ES-31
SD-9

34 Gr Dogtown bullet and 7.0 Grs SR 4759 with a WSP primer. 1.470 O.A.L. - 1 Shot

1841 FPS

Primers looked pretty good. True Blue meters extremely well, and that is a big plus in a sensitive caliber such as this. The V Max load had a bit more recoil, such as it is, and showed a bit more pressure sign on the primers. Interestingly enough, the primer from the SR 4759 load looked more like the primers from the V Max load than the Dogtown load.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... esPic1.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... esPic2.jpg

[Grantness]

Nice job Walkalong :thumb:

Glad to see you experimenting with new powders...
You think the 4759 might work better with heavier bullets (45-55gr)? You cant increase the load anymore cause the case is full... So the only way to get more oomph is to try heavier bullets, right? *im not suggesting you start out with a case-full of 4759 w/ the heavier bullets....but work your way up cautiously*

My guess is that the burn rate of 4759 is too slow, and prob wouldnt work so well in the short FsN barrel.

[Walkalong]

I think SR 4759 or 5477 would be of interest with heavier bullets. I started with a light one to be safe. My SR 4759 is at least 25 years old, before it was discontinued. (metal can) I will try 5477 next. I'll use a 34 gr, a 40 gr, a 50 gr, and a 55 gr bullet. I haven't decided on the weight yet. It may prove to be too slow to get top velocities, but might be useful for subsonic loads.

SR 4756 is going to get a try with light bullets.

I hope to find some 3N38 at the gun show in a week. I hate to pay hazmat for 1 Lb, but I want to try some of it. I have been wanting to try it in .40 S&W & .38 Super anyway.

Blue Dot would be intriguing if it metered well, but it doesn't.

N 105 is interesting.

What do those primers look like to you?

-------------
Oh yea, lots of fun. :thumb:

[Grantness]

4756's burn rate looks to be ok... As long as you can fit a decent charge in the case, it might work out. Hopefully you can get some good results.

As far as the primers go, its kinda hard to tell from the angle of those pics (especially whether or not there was any flattening)....but they look ok. Maybe a little bit more cratering in the 40gr bullets. Nothing to be worried about just yet.

N105 is kinda in the same boat....it looks like it will work if I can fit a decent charge in the case. The metering of Blue Dot wont be a problem for me...since I weigh every charge (when working up new loads or loading for my self-defense mags). I dont expect to get to chrono any of the Blue Dot/N105/Longshot loads for about another week...when I get my FsN back.

[Walkalong]

4756's burn rate looks to be ok... As long as you can fit a decent charge in the case

An unfired case held 6.0 to the bottom of the neck, which I would not start with being completely unknown how it will act. I could use a drop tube and get more in. One of the things that look good to me here is a full case of powder, & around a good burn rate. How it acts at high pressures is yet to be seen. AC

[Walkalong]

My factory rounds came after my range trip where I shot loads 1 & 2. Factory O.A.L. measured 1.570 to 1.580

I measured a factory rounds shoulder with the Sinclair tool (See Pic) using the 27 caliber hole. I got 1.928

I measured a cases shoulder that I sized with the ram going all the way to the Lyman sizer and camming over with the Sinclair tool using the 27 caliber hole. I got 1.933

I measured a cases shoulder that I fired in the AR 57 using the 27 caliber hole. I got around 1.975 to 1.985

I measured a cases shoulder after adjusting the sizer up a bit using the 27 caliber hole. I got 1.944

I tried this in the AR 57 chamber and while the hole case head appeared to be in the chamber, and would probably be OK, the round sized to 1.933 went in a bit further (duh), and still allowed the bolt to go forward as far as it could with no round in the chamber. The 1.944 round held the bolt back .010.

While 1.933 is letting the neck move forward around .047, and can't be good for brass life, and may be the reason this brass fails at the neck shoulder junction, it is safer, especially with a blowback action that starts opening immediately. I believe I will go with the shoulder pushed back as far as the sizer allows (1.933) for safety. If it hurts brass life, so be it. Granted my measurements were rough measurements, but I believe they showed me what I wanted to know. I am going to set the sizer back up so the press cams over on it.

I sized a double handful of range brass this morning and it is tumbling to remove the lube right as I type.

As a side note:

Long before I had ever read about the lacquer coating on the cases I had tumbled this brass all day while I was at work in my usual corncob with Midway polish added, just like I do all my range brass. I had been collecting brass for several months.

Was the lacquer coating damaged or removed? I don't know, but I saw no signs of a damaged coating of any kind on the brass, and it did not "shine up" like other brass did.

At any rate, the loaded rounds with this brass fed, fired, and ejected without issues in the AR 57 upper. Would this be a problem in the PS90 or the Five Seven pistol? I don't know.

I won't get to the range today. I'll be like a lot of folks, watching football, but I have some more brass all ready to go for some more testing. I'll post the results when I do.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... ssPic2.jpg

[Grantness]

Nice report :thumb: How are you adjusting the shoulder? Just screwing the die in or out?

Most experienced handloaders who start reloading this round are shocked by the degree of shoulder movement. For people used to reloading other cartridges, the degree of shoulder movement in the 5.7x28 can be down-right alarming....but it is typical, and not much of a danger. Like you said, the only problem with the shoulder movement is that it limits the number of times a case can be reloaded: 3-5x or even 6x depending on how hot you load them.

The blowback action is what causes the movement, right? I bet T/Cs dont have this problem :ponder:

[LK45s]

I'm beginning to think that using T/C for first load testing would be better than using FsN, PS90 or AR57. Kaboom wise anyway. It won't tell you if they will cycle. But seems inherently safer.

[Walkalong]

Nice report :thumb: How are you adjusting the shoulder? Just screwing the die in or out?

Most experienced handloaders who start reloading this round are shocked by the degree of shoulder movement. For people used to reloading other cartridges, the degree of shoulder movement in the 5.7x28 can be down-right alarming....but it is typical, and not much of a danger. Like you said, the only problem with the shoulder movement is that it limits the number of times a case can be reloaded: 3-5x or even 6x depending on how hot you load them.

The blowback action is what causes the movement, right? I bet T/Cs dont have this problem :ponder:

I agree, and Yes, screwing the die out a little.

I measured, well, just had to look at, the amount of shoulder movement and was surprised. I am an old Benchrest shooter who is used to bumping a 6PPC shoulder back .001! Even in regular rifle reloading shoulders that get pushed back .030 to .040 will cause case head separations real quick like.

I also think you are correct that it is the blowback design that causes it. On the positive side, it is saving stretching at the case head where normal rifle rounds thin out at.

It was obvious with a couple of measurements, and trying differently sized cases in the chamber, that the shoulder does not start out .040 from the chambers shoulder. We are not starting out with excessive headspace. It stretches forward as it is being ejected, giving the false impression of being a sloppy fit when sized.

All new to me, and very interesting. Just one of the anomalies of this caliber and the actions it is being fired in. Like you hinted at, I bet you could get MUCH better brass life in a T/C or bolt gun.

Does T/C make 5.7 X 28 barrels, or is it a special order item?

I wonder what a barrel for something like a 77/22 would cost? Hmm...... :ponder:

I really like mine in .22 Hornet. Sweet little shooter.

[Grantness]

You can order a T/C barrel in 5.7x28 from their custom shop starting at ~$290 for blued barrels.
Matchgrade Machine will make you one for closer to $400. We have some T/C threads in the forum if youre looking formore info.

My cases wont fit in my FsN if I screw the die out AT ALL. If the ram does not make full contact with the die, the rounds just dont fit in the chamber....the slide does not close all the way, and sticks out the back a little bit. I have fired a few rounds in this position...but velocity was significantly reduced (and im not sure how safe it is either). Remember, the barrel/chamber remains in contact with the breach face for 1/4" before they seperate.

[LK45s]

Here is one of the threads.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1900&p=29833&hilit ... der#p29833" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And one for a group buy from MGM.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1725&hilit=contender" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Walkalong]

Remember, the barrel/chamber remains in contact with the breach face for 1/4" before they seperate.

Not in the AR 57 upper. The barrel is fixed. The only thing keeping the round in the chamber any length of time is the spring and buffer. They supply what they called a "heavy" buffer with the upper. I do not know if it is the same as an AR "H" buffer vs "H2", "H3", or 9MM buffer which is even heavier. I need to weigh it somewhere.

I had an thought after my last post. The amount the shoulder is pushed forward by chamber pressure could tell us a lot about how long the pressure stayed high enough to push the shoulder forward as the case moved rearward, and how far out of the chamber the case was when pressures were still high.

A few of the range cases I found had the shoulder pushed forward more than the others.

How far the shoulder is forward, in the AR 57, would be controlled by charge weight, burn rate, spring strength, and buffer weight. We could experiment with even heavier buffers in the AR 57.

I assume in the PS 90 there is no ability to change spring weight, bolt weight, etc., but it would have to be controlled strictly with charge weight & burn rate.

At any rate, my point is that measuring how far the shoulder is pushed forward by one load compared to another load compared to factory loads, could give us some useful information.

[Grantness]

...so if you get a lot of shoulder movement but w/ less than expected velocity, you could assume burn rate is too slow?

i dunno seems like there are a lot variables to consider. A little above my paygrade :ponder:

[Walkalong]

...so if you get a lot of shoulder movement but w/ less than expected velocity, you could assume burn rate is too slow?

That sounds reasonable to me.

Probably above my pay grade as well, but I figure if the shoulder is farther forward, then the pressure stayed higher longer than a load with the shoulder not pushed out as far. Not necessarily more pressure, or even as much pressure, but high enough pressure, longer. I think until it shows bulged cases, it would be fine, just work the neck even more, resulting in less case life. But again....

Just speculating here.

[Grantness]

Its hard to get a bulged case . I have yet to see any excessive case head expansion (not saying it doesnt happen). The neck usually fails first.

[Walkalong]

I loaded up some more 34 Gr Dogtown bullets and 40 Gr V Max bullets. I used 6.2 Grs True Blue, 5.8 Grs SR 4756, and 7.5 Grs 5744 (Just one each of the 5744)

I hope to get to the range tomorrow to run them over the chrono. :thumb:

[Grantness]

cool, Im looking forward to your results. There's only a handful of powders that could possibly work well... so it shouldnt be too hard to try them all out...

[Walkalong]

I was hoping to find some 3N38 at the gun show today, but did not. I am going to try it for sure. I guess I'll have to order some. I am going to try progressively heavier bullets with 5744. 45,50,55, maybe heavier, it all depends on how the 50 & 55 Gr ones go. I do not know the twist rate on the AR 57 upper. I'll have to research it, or try to check it with a cleaning rod/patch. AC

[Walkalong]

The rain quit and the sun came out.

62 degrees in the shade and 70 degrees in the sun. I let the loads and the rifle warm up on the car hood and got started.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.2 Grs True Blue WSP primer - 34 Grain Dogtown @ 1.469 O.A.L. plus or minus .001 to .002 -10 shots

Hi-2496
Lo-2419
Avg-2448
ES-77
SD-20

6.2 Grs True Blue WSP primer - 40 Grain V Max @ 1.568 O.A.L. plus or minus .002 to .003 -10 shots

Hi-2359
Lo-2302 *
Avg-2337
ES-57
SD-15

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.2 Grs True Blue CCI 500 primer - 34 Grain Dogtown @ 1.469 O.A.L. plus or minus .001 to .002 -10 shots

Hi-2478
Lo-2406
Avg-2435
ES-72
SD-21

6.2 Grs True Blue CCI 500 primer - 40 Grain V Max @ 1.568 O.A.L. plus or minus .002 to .003 -10 shots

Hi-2343
Lo-2313
Avg-2329
ES-29
SD-8

=============================================================

5.8 Grs SR 4756 WSP primer - 34 Grain Dogtown @ 1.469 O.A.L. plus or minus .001 to .002 -5 shots

Hi-2398
Lo-2372
Avg-2385
ES-26
SD-10

5.8 Grs SR 4756 WSP primer -40 Grain V Max @ 1.568 O.A.L. plus or minus .002 to .003 -5 shots

Hi-2279
Lo-2248
Avg-2265
ES-31
SD-13

============================================================

7.5 Grs 5744 WSP primer - 34 Gr Dogtown @ 1.469 O.A.L. plus or minus .001 to .002 - 1shots

1775 FPS - Low pressure signs on primers, low recoil.

7.5 Grs 5744 WSP primer - 40 Gr V Max @ 1.568 O.A.L. plus or minus .002 to .003 - 1shots

1666 FPS - Low pressure signs on primers, low recoil.

Loads 3,4,5,& 6 - Pic

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... 1232309846

If you look at the second row, 3rd case from the left, you can see a primer backed out a hair. Interesting. It may have been the 2302 FPS shot * from the True Blue, WSP 40 V Max data. I wish I had seen it sooner, thrown it out, and recalculated the ES & SD for that load. It may have brought them closer to the same load with CCI primer.

I have found out that you can not let the bolt forward easy with the AR 57. The extractor has to "snap" over the rim, and will not do so unless the bolt flies forward with enough energy. I had one failure to fire with the CCI True Blue V Max loads. The extractor had not slipped over the rim, holding the firing pin off the primer. I wonder if the primer backed out showing low pressure (maybe the 2302 FPS shot?) was caused by the bolt not being quite far enough forward and causing the primer to fire, but not well. Just a guess. Anyway, I am going to go with an Xtra power Carbine buffer spring, and am going to experiment with a heavier buffer as well.

Either way, both primers worked well. No real big difference. A bigger sample than 10 would show more.

Loads 7 & 8 plus the two 7544 loads - Pic

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... 1232310039

The SR 4756 did real well on ES & SD numbers. I was pleased. I need to try 5.9 Grs, and try it on target as well. It may do very well with light bullets for plinking/range work.

I also need to check all loads when it is August and 99 Degrees here. Well, I'm out of here. Arizona has already scored!!!

[FallCityFNfan]

Walkalong posted "I measured a factory rounds shoulder with the Sinclair tool (See Pic) using the 27 caliber hole. I got 1.928".
Where can I lay my hands on one of these?

[Walkalong]

I do not see it on their website anymore. Maybe if you call them. It really just gives a "close enough" for most work measurement. A headspace tool is far more accurate. I use a button cut from a 6PPC barrel and partially chambered to check how much I push back the shoulder for cases in my Bench gun, but for that we are looking to only bump the shoulder .001 or less.

For the 5.7, and most rilfe calibers in regular rifles, we just need to make sure it will chamber without excessive headspace. Naturally we don't want to push the shoulder back any more than needed for positive chambering, but reliability is most important here, we are not shooting matches with it. My Lyman sizer is just about perfect when sizing the cases and hitting the bottom of the die with the shellholder so the press cams over.

I measured a factory rounds shoulder with the Sinclair tool (See Pic) using the 27 caliber hole. I got 1.928

I measured a cases shoulder that I sized with the ram going all the way to the Lyman sizer and camming over with the Sinclair tool using the 27 caliber hole. I got 1.933

:thumb:

That is with the Lyman shell holder. I got a Hornady last week as well, and it is slightly different. It holds the case a bit higher and bumps the shoulder farther if it is used. I bought the Hornady because the Lyman would not work in my RCBS hand primer, so I just modified the Lyman to work in it, and I'll use it instead of the Hornady. Feeding has been 100% with OF brass sized with the Lyman shell holder and sizer die.

SInclair International

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/cat ... type=store

[Walkalong]

I went to the range again after the rain finally quit. I brought some factory 197SR to see what it would do from the AR 57 barrel. I also brought a couple of reloads with me as well.

Loads fired in 16" barreled AR 57 - 60 degrees at 99% humidity.

197SR 40 Gr V Max - 1.570 to 1.580 O.A.L.

Hi-2126
Lo-2103
Avg-2114
ES-23
SD-11

Winchester 45 Gr SP - 1.510 to 1.525 O.A.L.
5.7 Grs SR 4756
WSP primer

Hi-2060
Lo-1972
Avg-2029
ES-88
SD-41

Win 45 Gr bullet fed, fired, and ejected without issue. I believe 5.8 Grs SR 4756 should be tried to settle numbers a bit.

Speer 50 Gr TNT - See this thread - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2256


55 Gr Win FMJBT - 1.574 to 1.585 O.A.L.
7.0 Grs 5744
WSP primer

Hi-1516
Lo-1406
Avg-1462
ES-110
SD-38

Unburned powder and terrible ES & SD numbers. Primers showed light pressure. Powder charge needs to go up until it is deemed unsafe or powder burns completely & numbers settle down. 5744 may be too slow. Time will tell. The Win 55 Gr FMJBT bullets gave very good neck tension, fed, fired and shot pretty well. They just need a good charge.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... 1232840134

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/ ... rimers.jpg

[Grantness]

That 5744 just doesnt seem like its worth pursuing. Good work with the 4756, your going to push it a little higher I take it?

[Walkalong]

5744 is not looking so hot right now.

I am going to try 5.8 Grs SR 4756 with the 45 Gr SP. Probably no more.