2021 SS190 with Steel "jacket"? not just the steel penetrator??? & SS192? listed in 2021 FN Doc???

[TheDriftlessExplorer]

Hello Five-Seven Friends,

I got a curious case for the forum here. No those weren't typos in the subject line but sheer confusion generated by a genuine FN document.... I came across this oddity in a post-NATO standardization 5.7x28mm pamphlet dated 2021 (Date confirmed on bottom of last page) which explicitly depicts and describes the SS190 as not merely steel tip/penetrator but also with a "Steel jacket"??? (Pg. 5, lower left) while in the diagram on the same page (Pg. 5 upper left) visually depicts it as the typical copper jacket yet labeling it again as "steel jacket".

I've been researching, collecting, shooting and reloading 5.7x28mm in one way or another for almost as long as its been around... It is and has been my favorite cartridge. It's aways been my understanding that SS190 isn't "steel jacketed", rather a typical copper (Technically a gilding metal, a copper-zinc alloy) jacket with steel penetrator and aluminum core. I am aware in recent-ish years the Subsonic Sb193's switched from a 55gr copper jacket to a 62gr steel jacket.... which now has me wondering if the SS190 got a similar alteration? does anyone have any more recent specimens of SS190 from 2021 or newer to examine for similar changes? and IF the change to steel jacket is correct.. why??? I cant imagine it would notably impact penetration ability or any other ballistic performance... and barrel life could suffer especially in the high rate of fire of the P90. but I'm getting ahead of myself and the information here.

To add further weirdness the same pamphlet lists SS192!?! (as in the SS192 discontinued in late 2004) on Pg. 8 as a cartridge in the current lineup??? Not the SS195's..., or the latest reincarnation as SS198LF's but SS192???

I'm curious if the cubicle monkeys? Marketing Team???? at FN unknowingly just pieced together the pamphlet with outdated marketing material? or if FN indeed made some changes to the SS190? I could see the SS192 part being a oversight (and made it through review?) but the "steel jacket" SS190 thing is seemingly less dismissable as an oversight as it referenced in multiple separate places and deliberately labeled and described in the diagram.

I gotta know whats going on here, nevertheless i thought it'd a interesting conversation.

Cheers to all & i look forward to the responses/conversation.

Buffman you got anything on this?, how about you Jay?

Official link to document in question from FN Herstal
https://fnherstal.com/app/uploads/fn-wh ... tent=ss190

[panzermk2]

Most likely a typo.

The SS190 does not use copper washed steel.

In fact the SS190 uses the same exact jacket and aluminum core as the SS192/SS195/SS198 just with an approximately 2 gr steal penetrator in the normal empty section of those other projectiles.


My money is marketing clowns who know nothing about the 5.7 slapped it together.

[TheDriftlessExplorer]

Hey Jay, Thanks for chiming in. I got a lot of respect for you, and your trailblazing efforts and products.

Even apart from the SS190's steel penetrator the aluminum core of S190 has notable differences from the SS192/SS195/SS198(and your S4's). In my cross sections and dissections the aluminum core of the SS192/SS195/SS198 bullets are longer (SS190 aluminum core = .390") (SS192/SS195/SS198 aluminum core = .525") and if you weight them notably heavier than the aluminum cores from the SS190's. but that's just me nitpicking details.



<Left : SS192/SS195/SS198 >Right SS190

Also i measured some penetrators pulled from SS190's on a calibrated digital reloading scale and they are 6.9 - 7gr not 2gr. what lot is your 2gr from? that's a significant difference.



I agree its probably a typo(s) by the cubicle monkeys in marketing. especially the SS192 part. but the "Steel Jacket" part was harder for me to shake off... since it was referenced more than once. and so prominently in the diagram. and since the Sb193 went through a recent conversion to a steel jacket there was enough curiosity to warrant bringing it to the forum. especially since i don't have any SS190 samples that new (2021+). In general the whole document seems sloppy especially for the big post NATO standardization marketing push. I'm surprised some of it made it through review. Hilariously, if you look closely the fake/mock ballistics Gel block diagrams of the 9x19mm and 5.7x28mm on pages 2 and 4 show the entire darn cartridges depicted flying though there, not the projectile. LOL

Cheers

[TheDriftlessExplorer]

I was working on a hunch and despite the document being labeled from 2021 it looks like FN may be recycling 20+/- year old marketing material in it? or at least potions of it? this would explain the SS192 thing too. just republishing it post-2021 Official NATO adoption/standardization?

Nevertheless I tore apart another SS190 (head stamp/mfg year 2000, the oldest i have to examine)(photos in link below) dissecting all components of the projectile and the jacket of this particular lot looked like a typical copper jacket at first but it IS COPPER CLAD STEEL.... and magnetic (tested with neodymium magnet, see photos below)... If you look at the last pic, you can actually see the steel layer. and the copper layer appears to be more substantial than a wash, more of a thicker clad layer?







I also found another cross-section photo from another fellow on IAA's Cartridge collector forum of a SS190 from an even earlier lot 1995 and his too is identical to my 2000 lot one here with the steel jacket...
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t ... -pics/8395

Hey Jay, any chance you know the lot #'s that your referring to that are just the typical copper/standard jacketed ones?

I'm wanting to piece together a timeline here now that i can account from ones from 1995, 1997 and one from 2000 being Steel Jacketed.
If anyone else has any data they can fill in it would be appreciated or any samples from newer lots they would be wiling to dissect for... "science"?.
when did they stop using steel? DID they? perhaps this is an oversight on my part and is and always has been steel albeit disguised almost unnoticeable unless carefully examined?
what about the newer Fiocchi production SS190? now I'm really curious...

[TheDriftlessExplorer]

Hey Jay, check this out

I was rummaging through some of the old historical document you have posted here.
https://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopi ... =2&t=17396

It references it as steel jacketed here too.

Pg 5/7 of the SS190 doc. dated 1994.

[panzermk2]

Interesting, I was looking for that document to verify on my desktop to confirm, couldn't and got sidetracked by work.

Looks like my memory has failed and I was wrong.

I do remember sectioning SS190 and it did not have a copper washed jacket.

It was NOT SS190 I sectioned but this lighter prototype replacement for the SS190 that was made sometime around 1998

Age and decaf has taken a toll on my memory.

[TheDriftlessExplorer]

Update: when i created this thread I had also created a clone of it on the other forum (FNForum) in hopes of casting a wider net for others who may have helpful information, but APPARENTLY an uppity moderator on that forum didn't like the topic? I logged on recently and discovered they took it down? I can't imagine any rules it violated. but I was given no explanation. no flag no nothin. i went to check up on it and post some more info and found out POOF it was like it never even existed. IDK how "official" the other forum is or if FN themselves have any say on that forum? maybe didn't like the error being pointed out? or talk of the SS190? NEVERTHELESS I have gone back and uploaded my photos from the other forum to a Image host so i could post them here. all prior posts here have now been edited/updated to include them and all future updates will continue to be made here where such open conversation IS STILL WELCOME...

[TheDriftlessExplorer]

Interesting, I was looking for that document to verify on my desktop to confirm, couldn't and got sidetracked by work.

Looks like my memory has failed and I was wrong.

I do remember sectioning SS190 and it did not have a copper washed jacket.

It was NOT SS190 I sectioned but this lighter prototype replacement for the SS190 that was made sometime around 1998

Age and decaf has taken a toll on my memory.

Aw man this is awesome Jay! thank you for taking time to share the info on that, I have NEVER seen nor heard of that proto/exp. variant you got there. This is fascinating i love this sorta stuff.

I wonder what the logic was there? if it is from around 1998 it seems kinda odd, especially if the ss190 as we know it already existed. initially i thought maybe it was for better matching the mass? trajectory? etc... to the SS192/SS195/SS198 (or i guess technically T194 back then)? for more consistency between the different loads e.g. your proto/alt variant of the SS190 there for Duty and T194 for training? but at 24gr vs the 27.8 of the T194/ SS192/SS195/SS198 but its about 3.8 grains lighter... instead of about 3.4gr heavier for the standard SS190 at 31.2gr. so that theory doesn't quite make sense.

Hmm... if the head stamp is correct, those are from 90 not 98... maybe it was more closely mimicking the performance of the earlier 23gr SS90? from the same era, rather than the standard ss190. missing link between the two perhaps? precursor rather than replacement?

Maybe it was to simplify manufacturing by sharing common components/machinery between the different projectiles? or both? that makes more sense i wonder why they deviated from that idea. maybe there was just a bit too much performance loss with the lighter penetrator?... huh.

at any rate its a really interesting piece of history.



As far as the SS190's go i have some interesting updates to share too. what started out as that oddity in the original document spawned a whole rabbit hole transitioning into wondering if/when the jacket material may have changed. Buffman and I have been bouncing emails back n' forth and he has some from 2000-2008 he says his are copper jacket just as you said. However mine (2000 lot aswell) is indeed steel (Photos of the dissection now in earlier post above), I was also able to find some other fellows who have some from 95 and 97, those were steel jacket aswell. so based on that i can assume they transitioned jacket material from steel to copper sometime in 2000? but I'm looking for more samples myself to dissect and confirm especially the newest lots.

[panzermk2]

Brass head stamps aren't always a good way to date rounds with FNH ammo.
Brass is made by the millions for years on end and there is NO change in the head stamp.

Well these are lighter meaning faster.

These came to me directly from Belgium around 2000 when I was just starting EA from someone who worked at FNH, this box is the only in the USA and I would be surprised if there are any in Belgium ether. I have the sectioned bullet somewhere in my stash drawers. I have pics of the sectioning but I can't find them. That was a longtime ago and many computer crashes since.