How deadly is the 5.7 in real life,or death

[Bazzer69]

Other than the infamous army shooting when the 5.7 proved very effective sad to say. Is there any other real life situations where the 5.7 has been used and what were the results?

[panzermk2]

Can you use google?


You do know the FsN is the preferred gun of the drug cartels for years now? Hundreds if not thousands have been killed in the drug wars by the cartels with the 5.7

Starting in the early 90's it's been and is still being used by many LEO and military agencies worldwide have been using it.

[Bazzer69]

Here's something I dug up from a old post. Very interesting if it's a all fact. If you include the fort Hood shootings it shows how effective the 5.7 is

Here is some info from FiveSeven forum.

"- The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident. The SB193 subsonic was not (to my knowledge) introduced until 1999.

- Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find.

- The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."

- Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation.

- Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.

- Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived.

- I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."

- Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject.

- Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.

- I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything.


Those are most of the shooting details I have. The others are too vague to draw much from. I do know that a PD in South Carolina (not sure specifically which department, as there are several PDs in SC using the P90) has shot multiple BGs with it. I wouldn't say there have been enough shootings to date to conclusively prove that the 5.7x28 is adequate, but the shootings we're aware of certainly give more likelihood/probability that the round will turn out. This thread might also interest you -- it contains a list of US agencies using the P90 and/or Five-seveN."

"- Firstly, of the Houston SWAT shooting it is often claimed that Sandy Wall works or has worked for FNH USA. This is false. Secondly, it is claimed that since this shooting involved 5.56 rounds also hitting the subject, it isn't a legitimate case for the 5.7x28mm. However, not only did the article author state that "The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets" and then "In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well", but it has also been stated elsewhere that the 5.56 rounds impacted IIRC on the hands/arms of the subject.

- The Jacksonville, FL shooting(s) are often severely represented. Some 5.7 opponents even go so far as to claim that the incident involved "all 50 rounds into the BG" and that the victim(s) merely reacting by "asking the officers to stop shooting them". Not only do statements from Jacksonville PD indicate that none of these subjects survived, but no one from or in contact with Jacksonville PD has given details on where or exactly how many times the subjects in these shootings were hit.

- I'm aware of another incident in 2002 where a 5.7 round ricocheted and struck a Duluth, GA police officer in the hip, injuring her. Some try to cite this as a case where the round 'failed to stop'. "

Bellevue, NE SWAT killed a pit bull in 2003 during a drug raid; it was shot with two rounds of SS190 out of a Five-seveN pistol. I know of five deer being killed by one of our members with a Five-seveN, none of them taking more than one round. One of our members has used his Five-seveN to kill small/medium-sized hogs (see that thread here) as well as another member that has used his Five-seveN with handloads on badger, fox, deer and rabbits (see that here) with good results. All of these cases were with civilian ammunition or handloads, except for the Belleview, NE incident.

Keep in mind, these cases were the performance of the rounds out of the shorter pistol barrel, out of the P90's 10-inch barrel, or the PS90's 16-inch barrel, performance will be even better. Between the Five-seveN and P90, there is a velocity difference of about 200 fps. SS190 averages about 2100 fps out of the Five-seveN, and 2350 fps out of the P90. The PS90 (civilian version of the P90) gives about a solid 225 fps increase over the standard P90, meaning it will give about 2600 fps with the better ammo types -- SS190, SS192, SS195.

Also, for any worried that SS192/SS195 performance will not parallel SS190 performance, please note that the tissue damage and penetration of the two in testing is virtually equal. Both yaw with no expansion or fragmentation, and gel penetration is identical in testing done by Ammolab's David Difabio."

http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=472" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


A few discussions about Five Seven

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=229951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CPTKILLER]

It is one of my GO TO Weapons here.

[DoubleJ]

Can you use google?


You do know the FsN is the preferred gun of the drug cartels for years now? Hundreds if not thousands have been killed in the drug wars by the cartels with the 5.7

Starting in the early 90's it's been and is still being used by many LEO and military agencies worldwide have been using it.

Pretty sure with the way cartels do business, they could use a 22 and kill hundreds, maybe thousands, of people. The data just doesn't exist for the 5.7 the way it does with the 38, 9mm, 357, and 45. Hell, the 9mm has been around for over 100 years, and people are still debating whether or not it's effective.

In my non military, non LEO opinion, it's similar in effectiveness to the 9mm, but a bit easier to handle and you get a couple more rounds per magazine. If I could get mine to run reliably, I'd consider putting the M&P back in the safe, but the M&P has never choked, and the FsN just isn't as reliable.

[Rapier1772]

Your FsN chokes? How rude! Sell it & buy a new one that works. Or send it to Jay, maybe he can figure out why

[NLVMike]

Double J, you are addressing separate issues. First, how deadly is the round? True, it may not have as much FBI data as other calibers, but it looks like there are enough instances to qualify it as deadly enough.

Second, reliability. It doesn't matter how deadly a round is, if you are not confident in the reliability of the platform. Get yours fixed or replaced. There is no excuse for it not to run reliably. I spend a lot of time and money getting all my weapons to run exactly the way I want them to, including the sights. I have some wonderfully reliable 1911's, after much gunsmith tweaking. My FiveSevens have always run perfectly, with the exception of AE ammo. It is important to do what you need to in order for it to run.

[Bazzer69]

In the Fort Hood Shootings several people tried to rush the shooter, none got to him. It seems that the thirteen who died were shot COM. All the injured who were immobilised were shot in the extremities. Unfortunate for all the innocent victims the shooter chose a very good weapon.

[PainKillaX]

I gotta say, I can't think of a single instance of my FsN not going bang when I pull the trigger. Not saying that you're doing something wrong, just that yours seems to be the exception. And Bazzer might be on to something here. Every piece of paper I've shot with 5.7x28 was stopped in its tracks!

[panzermk2]

Any mass produced gun can have issues. Send it to me if your's is.

[shopsmart]

I had a small conversation with someone that recently attended a presentation on terror incidents in the last 20 years. Ft Hood was one of them. Not much details discussed, but from what I could glean. SS195 or a FMJ was used and was pulled from victims. Pictures shown of the place and victims showed buckets of blood. From past statements, as above, people who rushed to stop were stopped. That is all I can say as that is all I got. Still want to view the info and pictures of that incident myself some day.

[Buffman]

I recall SS197 and or 192/195 being used.

[jmz5]

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/local/c ... /25802561/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Stitches1974]

I recall SS197 and or 192/195 being used.

I agree. A worker of the store where Insane bought his 5.7 was quoted as saying:

"Many of the bullets Hasan purchased were SS192 hollow-point cartridges that were taken off the civilian market because the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms considered them dangerous due to their “penetration capability,” Brannon said."

[kalani]

also he was able to fend off armed responders because he had a bit more length he could shoot with some accuracy at a distance that there 9mms could not shoot back with accuracy.

[woahhs]

I recall SS197 and or 192/195 being used.

The slug that Alonzo Lunsford carries around with him, the one they removed from his gut or head I think, was quite obviously 192. Just Google his name and you'll find a picture of him with the bullet he carries around with him, so you can see for yourself.

[Rapier1772]

That doesn't look like it tumbled at all


It's definitely not the 197 but that's just one bullet.
http://kdhnews.com/news/prosecutors-end ... e0501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hasan initially purchased SS192 rounds, but after the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives announced that type was no longer available to civilians, it was discontinued. Stores were allowed to sell what remained of their stock, Brannon said.
Hasan started purchasing blue-tipped rounds, which were designed to fragment when they hit targets, Brannon said. A witness who testified earlier this week said he saw blue-tipped ammunition in the magazine when he handled the weapon after the shooting Nov. 5.

From the article, he probably had plenty of both on him.

[Bazzer69]

Ive just purchased some 30grain HG Raptors from Cutting Edge Bullets. The Gel tests look impressive. It's a fragmenting round that splits on fluid contact into a base and five "petals" that radiate in a star burst fashion. In a vid of a large pig shot with one all the major organs where damaged. Looks like a one stop round to me. Shot Mozambique style, or SAS style, I would say a assailant would not stand much of a chance to doing anything much. Online there are vids of big game being shot with these and they dropped on the spot.
I'm going to reload these based on CTE recommendations. 7.1 Grains of Power Pistol. I don't have any Gel, but I'll try water jugs and some denim.

Bazzer

I want to add a signature, but I can't find a way to upgrade my membership

[Rapier1772]

I want to add a signature, but I can't find a way to upgrade my membership

All membership upgrades can be referenced in this thread: http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Either way though, you will have to contact jmz5.

[Buffman]

That doesn't look like it tumbled at all


It's definitely not the 197 but that's just one bullet.
http://kdhnews.com/news/prosecutors-end ... e0501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hasan initially purchased SS192 rounds, but after the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives announced that type was no longer available to civilians, it was discontinued. Stores were allowed to sell what remained of their stock, Brannon said.
Hasan started purchasing blue-tipped rounds, which were designed to fragment when they hit targets, Brannon said. A witness who testified earlier this week said he saw blue-tipped ammunition in the magazine when he handled the weapon after the shooting Nov. 5.

From the article, he probably had plenty of both on him.

What's that picture from? Looks like 192/195

[panzermk2]

That bullet looks like it was shot into the air.

[Rapier1772]

What's that picture from? Looks like 192/195

I just googled the guy's name & those were among the pics which came up.

That bullet looks like it was shot into the air.

Agree, it doesn't look to me like it impacted anything. But check out the other pics of him in the hospital, he got pretty smegged up. Maybe it's a souvenir someone recovered & gave to him. Personally, I would think any/all the bullets recovered from the victims would be kept as evidence.

[panzermk2]

"kept as evidence" BINGO they store that <profanity> for years now.