Ft. Hood

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by gotants » 08 Nov 2009, 12:23

Esteves wrote:
gotants wrote:Is there a reason the thread "Breaking" was not merged into this one? Besides the fact that I had the intel of the FsN as being the weapon used, some 18 hrs before noted on this thread, there is also some pertinent info on the 5th page that I posted. Most notably the bit on Islamic religion and why we'll never be in peace with them.
Although the rule is sometimes bent, there is a strong guideline that what's said in the cage stays in the cage. The unfortunate side-effect is that once a thread is caged, it stays there.
I gotcha. :thumb: It was the only thread on the topic when I posted and thought it best not to start another one. ;)

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Texas shooting

Post by widmyeal » 08 Nov 2009, 17:31

One of the pistols used by the Major at the militay base was an FN 5.7x28

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Rapier1772 » 08 Nov 2009, 18:10

Sorry, Fuzzy - got another one :?:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5849" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On topic:
Now they are saying that a type of secondary post traumatic stress disorder thing may have contributed.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599193640700" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In medical parlance it is known as "secondary trauma", and it can afflict the families of soldiers suffering from P.T.S.D. along with the health workers who are trying to cure them. Dr. Antonette Zeiss, Deputy Chief of Mental Health Services for Veteran Affairs, while not wishing to talk about the specific case of the Fort Hood slayings, explained to TIME that: "Anyone who works with P.T.S.D. clients and hears their stories will be profoundly affected."
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by toyslr » 08 Nov 2009, 18:15

They'll go with a mental illness defense and we will be paying for that <profanity>
care for the rest of his miserable life! :wall:

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Grantness » 08 Nov 2009, 23:16

Funny how a guy uses a pistol and he's mentally ill. If he used a bomb, THEN he'd be a terrorist.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Llagoud » 09 Nov 2009, 04:10

From Mr. Steyn:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/? ... EyNDg0YjA=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Step Three:

Thinking Anew—Security Priorities for the Next Administration

A coherent strategy to address 21st century threats to the United States, one that treats national and homeland security as a seamless whole, has yet to emerge... To help fuel this process, in April 2008 The George Washington University Homeland Security Policy Institute (HSPI) established the Presidential Transition Task Force, comprised of national and homeland security experts, policymakers and practitioners... The goal was to determine the top strategic priorities to advance the nation’s security in the coming decade...

Event Participants:

...Amanda Halpern
U.S. House of Representatives

Beth Hampton
Homeland Security Institute

Nidal Hasan
Uniformed Services University School of Medicine


Donald Hawkins
U.S. Department of Homeland Security

Eric Heighberger
Homeland Security Council...

That's quite the company for a deranged misfit loner whacko of no broader significance.

I believe it was Derb a few months after 9/11 who said that for this new struggle our watchword was "Better screwed than rude." Major Hasan represents the institutionalization of that attitude. Thirteen people are dead, dozens more will live with their injuries for the rest of their days, and a lot of families have had a great big gaping hole blown out of their lives because of it.

Anwar al-Awlaki and his chums have bet that such a society is too sick to survive. Watch the nothing-to-see-here media driveling on about pre-post-traumatic stress disorder like gibbering lunatics in a padded cell , and then think whether you'd really want to take that bet.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by sabotteur » 09 Nov 2009, 06:11

toyslr wrote:They'll go with a mental illness defense and we will be paying for that <profanity>
care for the rest of his miserable life! :wall:

Ship his <profanity> up here to VA. We are set to fry Mohammed (DC Sniper) later this month. Granted it took us 10 years to get here, but he has a meeting with a needle soon.

Personally, I wish our young mother who took it in the legs would have accidently pulled off a headshot, but she did what she was suppose to...aim for center mass.

The good news is that this will be a military trial. The appeal process isn't quite like the civilian side. If he doesn't get shanked at Fort Leavenworth, he should at least see a hangman's noose much sooner than he would had he been a civie.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Captan Harold D » 09 Nov 2009, 06:25

I hope that Leavenworth takes care of it!
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Llagoud » 09 Nov 2009, 06:32

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/why-h ... akbar.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Robert Spenser interviewed by Front Page Mag, posted at jihadwatch, exerpt:
FP: Why does the media and liberal-Left so reflexively deny and ignore these conclusions?

Spencer: They reflexively deny and ignore these conclusions because they are completely sold out to the idea that Muslims, as non-white, non-Christian, non-Westerners, cannot possibly be anything but victims. (The facts that there are white Muslims, and that the jihad doctrine and Islamic supremacism are not racial issues, but constitute an ideological and societal challenge, are completely lost on them. Likewise the non-white victims of the jihad matter nothing to them.) We can see from the avalanche of "backlash" stories in the mainstream media - even in the absence of any actual backlash - that it is simply impossible for these people to conceive of a paradigm in which Muslims can perpetrate any kind of evil at all. In the lenses through which they view the world, only white Judeo-Christian Westerners can do anything wrong.

FP: What does this massacre, and the media response, indicate about what is coming down the line for our country?

Spencer: The more we remain in denial about how these things happen, and from what wellsprings they come, the more we will see of attacks like this. Why? Because nothing is being done to prevent them. Instead of the endless stories about backlash that we are seeing, we should be seeing stories about authorities calling the American Muslim community to account. We should be seeing stories about authorities demanding transparent, inspectable programs in American mosques and Islamic schools, teaching against the Islamic doctrines that inspired Nidal Hasan. This is not a religious freedom issue - these are political doctrines with a lethal edge, as Nidal Hasan illustrated. It is an entirely Constitutional matter of self-protection to move to restrict it.

But that won't happen. Political correctness has the media and government in a stranglehold. That will only ensure that nothing will be done to address this problem at its root, and we will see many more Nidal Hasans.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Wollychop » 09 Nov 2009, 06:35

Unfortunately, I think we will see something that will make 9/11 look like a roadside bomb.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Llagoud » 09 Nov 2009, 06:41

And even then the appeasers and appologists will blame us, and let the terrorists play the victim card. :(

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Wollychop » 09 Nov 2009, 07:02

Well, it all stems from a need for them to rationalize everything.

They cannot accept that there are irrational players in the world, because they cannot accept the premise that not everyone is good deep down inside.

Therefore, for someone to do evil there must a tangible root cause, a root cause itself which could be corrected to bring out the good.

Remember the absurd theory that a contributing factor to the rise of naziism was German toilet training practices?

Progressives/Liberals are the well meaning idiots who unwittingly aid their own killers.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by DmL5 » 09 Nov 2009, 08:58

Looks like FNH USA has edited their "Five-seveN Facts" brochure to include a brief mention of the incident:
http://www.fnhusa1.com/PDF/5.7_Brochure.pdf

As a result of a tragic incident on a Military base there have been some inaccurate and misleading statements
made about the Five seven pistol which caused FNH USA to issue this Fact Sheet to set the record straight.
Among other things, the Five-seveN pistol has been mischaracterized by some as a new firearm which shoots
armor-piercing ammunition. To be clear: armor piercing ammunition can be shot from any firearm; and is only
available to law enforcement agencies and military organizations through official procurement procedures
regulated by BATFE.

FNH USA is a responsible and law abiding firearms company conducting business in the United States that does
not and cannot sell armor-piercing ammunition2 on the commercial market. There are no exceptions to this
federal prohibition. The only FN 5.7x28mm ammunition available to civilians has been specifically declared by
the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to be non-armor-piercing.

FNH USA is the business development, sales and manufacturing arm in the United States for FN Herstal. As a
longtime worldwide leader in military, law enforcement and commercial firearms we take great pride in our
reputation. In this context, we request that our Distributors adhere to the “Responsible Firearms Distributor Code
of Practice” endorsed by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI) and the National
Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF).3 We also support proactive joint law enforcement / industry cooperative
efforts such as “Project Gunrunner”4 and “Don’t Lie for the Other Guy.” 5

More information is available online at http://www.fnhusa.com/fivesevenfacts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 09 Nov 2009, 09:37

I really hate FN's pdf's. They rely too heavily on graphics.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Wollychop » 09 Nov 2009, 10:24

AP

The personal Web site for a radical American imam living in Yemen who had contact with two 9/11 hijackers is praising alleged Fort Hood shooter Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan as a hero.

The posting Monday on the Web site for Anwar al Awlaki, who was a spiritual leader at two mosques where three 9/11 hijackers worshipped, said American Muslims who condemned the attacks on the Texas military base last week are hypocrites who have committed treason against their religion.

Two U.S. intelligence officials told The Associated Press the Web site was Al Awlaki's. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence collection.

Anwar said the only way a Muslim can justify serving in the U.S. military is if he intends to "follow in the footsteps of men like Nidal."

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by panzermk2wife » 09 Nov 2009, 11:00

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by panzermk2wife » 09 Nov 2009, 11:09

http://www.bnd.com/news/state/story/998514.html

Army to review gun policies for all bases
By ANNA M.TINSLEY AND AMAN BATHEJA - McClatchy Newspapers
Saturday, Nov. 07, 2009


FORT WORTH, Texas -- One day after a shooter opened fire at Fort Hood, Texas, Army Chief of Staff George W. Casey Jr. ordered a review of all force protection policies at Army bases worldwide.

Thursday's shooting, he said during a briefing at Fort Hood, was a "kick in the gut."

Casey's announcement comes after questions were raised about base security and why soldiers couldn't protect themselves where they live and work.


"There will be an investigation, a look at the whole policy, but Congress should not step in and try to change the policy," said U.S. Rep. Kay Granger, R-Texas.

Each branch of the military sets a policy on whether guns may be carried on bases. Private guns are not allowed on Army bases or at facilities such as the Naval Air Station Fort Worth.

Soldiers generally carry weapons on base only when there is a reason, such as a training exercise or a trip to the firing range. Personal weapons are registered with authorities on the base and stored until they are signed out.

"This base, and other bases, these are people's homes," Granger said. "So there are people who are armed on base - military police, security guards - but not in their homes, their schools or, in this case, the deployment area."

U.S. Rep. Michael Burgess, R-Texas, is among those wondering whether that is the right policy."The investigation at Fort Hood is still ongoing, and Congressman Burgess believes that answers are needed before conclusions can be drawn and action can be taken on related issues," said Lauren Bean, a Burgess spokeswoman.

Thursday's shooting revived the debate about gun rules for military bases. Currently, concealed-handgun laws such as the one in Texas do not apply on military bases.

Suzanna Hupp, a former state representative whose parents were among the Killeen, Texas, Luby's massacre victims in 1991, said allowing soldiers on base to carry arms would not prevent attacks like Thursday's but would likely reduce the damage.

"Of course the element of surprise was a probably valuable tool for a creep like this," Hupp said. "You're not going to prevent somebody from killing those first couple of people ... but after that ... it could have ended much, much, much sooner."

Hupp said the issue wouldn't be addressed while the Obama administration is in power.

Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson, a gun rights advocate, said that the policies at military bases should be up to military officials but that a review makes sense.

"I'm not saying the policy should change ... but again we have an example of a shooter going to a target-rich environment where he knew that no one was there who could resist," he said.

Gun control groups quickly pointed to the Fort Hood shooting as a reason to stiffen gun control laws.

"This latest tragedy, at a heavily fortified Army base, ought to convince more Americans to reject the argument that the solution to gun violence is to arm more people with more guns in more places," said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by panzermk2wife » 09 Nov 2009, 11:12

Major Nidal Malik Hasan:

39 years old. Born in Arlington, raised primarily in southwestern Virginia, graduated from William Fleming High School in Roanoke . Also attended Arlington's Wakefield High School for a year. U.S. Army psychiatrist. Graduated from Virginia Tech with honors in 1995. Studied at Barstow Community College in California and Virginia Western Community College in Roanoke. Received doctorate in psychiatry from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda. Resident and then a fellow at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in the District. Commissioned as a Captain, he was promoted to Major in May. Was awaiting deployment to Afghanistan, which was to be his first Army service overseas. He is listed by the Center for the Study of Traumatic Stress as a fellow for disaster and preventive psychology. As of Oct. 13, he had less than a year of clinical practice. He attended the Muslim Community Center in Silver Spring and is devout, according to Faizul Khan, former imam at the center. He attended prayers at least once a day, seven days a week, often in his Army fatigues, Khan said.

SOURCES: Army records and officials, Virginia Tech officials, Arlington schools officials, Washington Post staff writers
“Fort Hood shooting suspect, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, wanted out of the Army after being constantly harassed by others in the military and was called a ‘camel jockey,’ his family said.

“As Hasan was about to be deployed to Iraq, he was suffering from some of the same stresses that he was trained as an Army psychiatrist to treat.

“Although the 39-year-old had just been promoted to major in May, his family says he had hired a lawyer to help him get out of the Armed Forces.

“Hasan is an American citizen of Palestinian descent and after the 9/11 attacks, his cousin says he was the target of constant harassment from others in the military. His tormentors called him a "camel jockey," said his cousin, Nader Hasan. He wanted out of the Army, so he paid back his military student loans and hired an attorney.”

“While the bullying irritated Hasan, Nader Hasan believes his upcoming deployment is what set him off”
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More bad press for the FsN

Post by Epi » 09 Nov 2009, 14:21

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/11 ... iller-gun/
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/cop-kille ... id=9019521
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/n ... 07gun.html

I've been lurking for a while, and just signed up recently after purchasing my very own... I'm thrilled with the gun, and I've made quite a few fans of my friends as well. That being said, I hate to make this my first post, but I figured I'd let you all know of a bit of media hype coming out of the tragic events at Fort Hood. It's sad to see this gun still gets such a bad rep...

Cheers!

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Re: More bad press for the FsN

Post by jmz5 » 09 Nov 2009, 14:29

Welcome, we are all well aware of the Ft. Hood shootings here, there were at least a half a dozen threads created on it that we merged together. :)
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Re: More bad press for the FsN

Post by fatherfoof » 09 Nov 2009, 14:43

Welcome Epi! We're delighted to have you join us and we've been closely watching the investigation.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by User42 » 09 Nov 2009, 22:27

This was not an irrational random act, he brought the guns and multiple loaded magazines with the intent to harm as many people as possible. I believe 100% that if anyone qualified with small arms was allowed to open carry at work, he would have picked an easier target. I'm surprised they would even consider letting soldiers go to work armed though, I would expect the kneejerk response to be heavier screening in an attempt to catch unauthorized firearms at the gate. It wouldn't work of course, or at least wouldn't be very effective for very long, but it seems like the obvious military response.

I'm glad people are realizing that taking our guns away doesn't make us safer, even if its just the army for now.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Hound7 » 09 Nov 2009, 22:52

Thinking Anew—Security Priorities for the Next Administration
PROCEEDINGS REPORT OF THE HSPI PRESIDENTIAL TRANSITION TASK FORCE
April 2008-January 2009

Initiated by HSPI’s Steering Committee in Spring 2008, the Task Force sought to further policy discussions of the top strategic priorities in the area of security in order to generate actionable recommendations, for the Administration taking office in January 2009, designed to effectively meet the most vexing challenges the United States faces today.

APPENDIX C
Task Force Event Participants*

Nidal Hasan
Uniformed Services University School of Medicine

http://www.gwumc.edu/hspi/old/PTTF_Proc ... .19.09.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Real life, stranger than fiction.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by panzermk2wife » 09 Nov 2009, 23:02

Gee, I wondering who is giving them this "information" :ponder:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/0 ... 50468.html


Nidal Hasan Tried To Contact Al Qaida, US Officials Knew Months Ago


ABC News is reporting that U.S. agencies were aware months ago that Fort Hood shooting suspect Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan sought to contact people associated with al Qaida, according two American officials familiar with the case. "It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said," ABC writes.

While ABC goes on to note that CIA director Leon Panetta was asked by Congress "to preserve" all documents related to Hasan, CBS News is reporting that a U.S. intelligence official has told them that there is no indication that the agency had collected information related to the case and then not acted on it.

Meanwhile, the AP is reporting that a radical American imam currently living in Yemen has praised Hasan for the shooting in a post on his website:
The posting Monday on the Web site for Anwar al Awlaki, who was a spiritual leader at two mosques where three 9/11 hijackers worshipped, said American Muslims who condemned the attacks on the Texas military base last week are hypocrites who have committed treason against their religion.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by helodad » 10 Nov 2009, 08:17

Any word on ammo type Just wanted to stock up up before they come after it. i'm sure its most likely SS197

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by John Hicks » 10 Nov 2009, 09:33

I just thought I'd put in my 2 cents here. I'm more of a lurker here, but wanted to share a bit. I've seen these things play out before and I am not concerned.

The story can only have one focus. While this story is very complicated and twisted; from his contact with a radical imam, to the gun(s) used, to the heroism of the unarmed and the responding officers, et al -- the media has been focusing more on his link to radical islam and disdain for our current foreign policy.

The usual suspects will hoot and holler about "we need to ban this or that", but at the end of the day, it is a non-story. Armed responders, disarmed victims, and a military shooter that would likely have been able to purchase "cop killer" and "military grade" weapons and ammo regardless of the law covering civilians would be too complicated and unlikely to stir public sentiment. However, "mulsim traitor infiltrates army and wages jihad" is a much better story line. I'm not saying it's right, but that is usually how these things break out.

Virginia Tech was *almost* about the guns -- until it became about the failed mental health system.

Our best defense as gun owners to is to keep pushing the "disarmed victim" and "evil people kill people, not the gun" points. Stocking up on ammo and inflating gun prices is almost an admission of guilt on our (collective) part that the grabbers are right. We have gained control of the debate, let's keep the focus on our points and not give the antis any fodder.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by EARS » 10 Nov 2009, 09:59

Valid points John. Good post.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Hound7 » 10 Nov 2009, 10:12

Fort Hood suspect warned of threats in ranks

Maj. Nidal M. Hasan was supposed to make a presentation on a medical topic of his choosing as a culminating exercise of the residency program.

Instead, in late June 2007, he stood before his supervisors and about 25 other mental health staff members and lectured on Islam, suicide bombers and threats the military could encounter from Muslims conflicted about fighting in the Muslim countries of Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a copy of the presentation obtained by The Washington Post.

The title of Hasan's PowerPoint presentation was "The Koranic World View As It Relates to Muslims in the U.S. Military." It consisted of 50 slides.

If typical procedures were followed, his adviser would have supervised the development of his project, said people familiar with the practice.

The last bullet point on that page reads simply: "We love death more then [sic] you love life!"

Under the "Conclusions" page, Hasan wrote that "Fighting to establish an Islamic State to please God, even by force, is condoned by the Islam," and that "Muslim Soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk to hurting/killing believers unjustly — will vary!"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33819877/ns ... ngton_post" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The guy did everything but buy an ad on the back page of the NY Times. I hope conservatives come up with a way to communicate to the masses why the liberal establishement is responsible for the pc environment that allowed this to happen. During WWII our Democratic President, forefather of most everything the left holds dear, saw fit to imprison US citizens based on their ties to our enemies--even though there was never a single incident of them attacking anyone on US soil. Now the left has slid so far off the map they are inviting these attacks by validating our enemy's radical fervor and making it politically incorrect to even challenge them for fear of being labeled racist or islamophobic.

My guess is the next step will be for Homeland Security to issue another warning to all local agencies to beware a backlash from mainstream Americans.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by helodad » 10 Nov 2009, 10:41

Hound7 wrote:Maj. Nidal M. Hasan was supposed to make a presentation on a medical topic of his choosing as a culminating exercise of the residency program.
Read his presentation all I can say is WOW! Some one really dropped the ball on this one. I think you will see the Military try there best to cover it up.As a former member of the armed forces an officer with this opinion would not be allowed to serve and would not reach the rank of Maj. But i was not in an post 9-11 era. I,m basing this on just this one presentation that was not even on topic of his residency.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Cyberfly » 10 Nov 2009, 11:02

Hey, did you guys hear the news?
They're saying that the shooter at Ft. Hood used a 5-7! Wow...just wow.

Oh, hey. There's already a thread on this. I better merge this before Fuzzy sharts himself... :p
Just kidding. I just wanted to jerk his chain a little. If he had hair, I think he would have pulled it all out by now. :lmao:
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 10 Nov 2009, 11:13

I shaved it all off this past weekend. :p

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FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by GhostDancer » 10 Nov 2009, 11:18

Apparently, according to news reports; one of the guns used by the gunman at Ft. Hood was a FiveSeven. Sadly, it appears that the 5.7x28 round works well...

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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by toyslr » 10 Nov 2009, 11:27

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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by f3rr37 » 10 Nov 2009, 11:30

What are you doing there toyslr? Are you trying to say a thread about this already exists?

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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by dpt » 10 Nov 2009, 11:34

Lets get over what type of gun he used please and recognize altogether that was a <profanity> up thing and cowardly action.

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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by Hobknob » 10 Nov 2009, 11:48

I have to admit, this is almost hysterical how many times a new thread has been created on this exact topic.....it was a little anoying, then it was funny, then it was frustrating, then it became a little infuriating, now it's almost back to being funny....I've completely lost count of the number of times it has popped up. Still, somebody is going to go ape on this when he sees it...again.

BTW, i like the beating the dead horse smiley!
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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by f3rr37 » 10 Nov 2009, 11:49

I think I stopped counting at 7.

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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by retread » 10 Nov 2009, 11:55

tragic yes, but the investigator in me wants to know what round was used, what location of bullet strikes resulted in fatality or incapacitation. If he expended 100 rds ,how many strikes did he have, where did the 9mm rounds strike him and what damage did it do? Did it put him out of the fight or was he able to continue with his rampage? i want to know all this and not because of some Morbid Curiosity. I still carry guns daily, my life and someone elses may depend on it.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by DarkWater » 10 Nov 2009, 12:18

Cyberfly wrote:Hey, did you guys hear the news?
They're saying that the shooter at Ft. Hood used a 5-7! Wow...just wow.

Oh, hey. There's already a thread on this. I better merge this before Fuzzy sharts himself... :p
Just kidding. I just wanted to jerk his chain a little. If he had hair, I think he would have pulled it all out by now. :lmao:
oh, you mean
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5879" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:wall: :wall: :wall:

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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by toyslr » 10 Nov 2009, 12:28

:thumb: dead on fuzzy...

its beyond funny the number of posts this is getting here, compared to the "other" forum.
wish my SALE post got as many hits :clap:

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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by RedDog57 » 10 Nov 2009, 12:33

toyslr wrote:Image
Love it! Hopefully we won't need this smiley permanently. :lmao:

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Re: FiveSeven used by gunman at Ft. Hood...

Post by jmz5 » 10 Nov 2009, 12:41

Argh....
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by jmz5 » 10 Nov 2009, 12:42

Merged, again.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 10 Nov 2009, 12:47

What's wrong jmz? :laugh:

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More bad news...

Post by AN_OLD_LADY » 10 Nov 2009, 16:17

I heard today that the shooter at Fort Hood used a Five-seveN, This is the only site that doesnt cry BAN!
http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/20 ... fort-hood/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More 'cop-killer' bs. This bugs me a lot.

*gets on soapbox* :furious:

Why is it that anytime something is used by bad people, the item becomes evil itself? :evil:
9mm has probably been used in far more cop killings than any other caliber.
"it holds 20-30+rds..." :banned:
It's very light and portable :banned:
it's been used in a SINGLE high profile shooting :banned:
it's a highspeed bullet. :banned:
Guns made this country, guns will protect this country. Only slaves aren't allowed to own weapons. A country is fearful of armed citizens, but that is the only way a country won't opress it's people. Disarmament is the 1st step to opression.

And yet, the biggest killer of all is not the gun, sword, pen, country, nor hand... Religeon, the number one killer of man...
Why not ban it? It has killed more people throughout history than any weapon ever has or ever will.


*gets off of soapbox* *passes soapbox on to next person*

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Re: More bad news...

Post by jmz5 » 10 Nov 2009, 16:18

Not again..... :laugh:


Merged, again! :laugh:
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by toyslr » 10 Nov 2009, 16:45

Image
Image
Image

Why not lock ALL the existing threads and do way with WHOLE deal.....

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by SeaHawkDriver-B » 11 Nov 2009, 14:19

I find this discussion both disgusting and thrilling at the same time so I'm shelaced in irony.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by EARS » 11 Nov 2009, 14:23

Seahawk - You forgot one important part on "his sentence". All that has to be done by women.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by jgreenberg01 » 11 Nov 2009, 14:28

Don't hold back SeaHawk... it's not good to keep it bottled up inside!

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 11 Nov 2009, 15:29

SeaHawkDriver-B wrote:I find this discussion both disgusting and thrilling at the same time so I'm shelaced in irony.
I found your post completely inappropriate to be posted on an open forum and have removed all but the first sentence.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by SeaHawkDriver-B » 11 Nov 2009, 15:46

Ok Ok, my bad I didn't know what "kind" of forum this was. Lots of them are OPEN forums and lots of forums have their own distinct 'opinionated' rule on language use and subject matter. I didn't use much in the way of profanity whatsoever I left most of the graphic depicitions of what that individual deserves up to your own mind to put together. The fact of the matter is that a dozen or so of our boys lay slaughtered, bloody, dead in the hallways or behind the meager homewares the sought cover under. Thats a fact...... language... oh yes the language of vengance which I used is but a mere fraction of what the reality of this sutation brings to us.

Whatever, I'm not here to make trouble, just tell it like it is. Haven't we all had enough of the rhetoric?

In my defense I will only say that it seems you are a staunch supporter of the Second amendment and not the First Amendment. YOu can't have it both ways, either we have both guns and unsensored free speech, or we have neither. Do not be lukewarm, or I will spit you out, sayeth the Lord.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by jmz5 » 11 Nov 2009, 15:50

We do support the first amendment here :) But, that only applies to public places, as this is a privately owned forum, we like to keep things semi-g rated as we do have young people use the site also.
We do have another area of the site that allows members to talk about gross things and such.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Llagoud » 11 Nov 2009, 15:59

The First Amendment protects you from reprisal by government, not from Trace Adkins. :laugh:

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 11 Nov 2009, 16:04

SeaHawkDriver-B wrote:Ok Ok, my bad I didn't know what "kind" of forum this was. Lots of them are OPEN forums and lots of forums have their own distinct 'opinionated' rule on language use and subject matter. I didn't use much in the way of profanity whatsoever I left most of the graphic depicitions of what that individual deserves up to your own mind to put together. The fact of the matter is that a dozen or so of our boys lay slaughtered, bloody, dead in the hallways or behind the meager homewares the sought cover under. Thats a fact...... language... oh yes the language of vengance which I used is but a mere fraction of what the reality of this sutation brings to us.

Whatever, I'm not here to make trouble, just tell it like it is. Haven't we all had enough of the rhetoric?
I'm fully aware of the situation that took place. I have the same feelings toward this terrorist as you do.
SeaHawkDriver-B wrote:In my defense I will only say that it seems you are a staunch supporter of the Second amendment and not the First Amendment. YOu can't have it both ways, either we have both guns and unsensored free speech, or we have neither. Do not be lukewarm, or I will spit you out, sayeth the Lord.
Ask anyone here, I am a strong supporter of the first and second amendments.

You are free to say what you wish, but as jmz said this is a private forum and we try to keep things somewhat at a toned down level on the open forum.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by tejohnson » 11 Nov 2009, 16:37

Interesting read:

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20091111 ... challenges" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Hasan Case: Overt Clues and Tactical Challenges
November 11, 2009 | 1841 GMT

By Scott Stewart and Fred Burton

In last week’s global security and intelligence report, we discussed the recent call by the leader of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, Nasir al-Wahayshi, for jihadists to conduct simple attacks against a variety of targets in the Muslim world and the West. We also noted how it is relatively simple to conduct such attacks against soft targets using improvised explosive devices, guns or even knives and clubs.

The next day, a lone gunman, U.S. Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, opened fire on a group of soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas. The victims were in the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, a facility on the base where troops are prepared for deployment and where they take care of certain processing tasks such as completing insurance paperwork and receiving medical examinations and vaccinations.

Even though the targets of Hasan’s attack were soldiers, they represented a very soft target in this environment. Most soldiers on bases inside the United States are normally not armed and are only provided weapons for training. The only personnel who regularly carry weapons are the military police and the base civilian police officers. In addition to being unarmed, the soldiers at the center were closely packed together in the facility as they waited to proceed from station to station. The unarmed, densely packed mass of people allowed Hasan to kill 13 (12 soldiers and one civilian employee of the center) and wound 42 others when he opened fire.

Hasan is a U.S.-born Muslim who, according to STRATFOR sources and media accounts, has had past contact with jihadists, including the radical Imam Anwar al-Awlaki. Al-Awlaki is a U.S.-born imam who espouses a jihadist ideology and who was discussed at some length in the 9/11 commission report for his links to 9/11 hijackers Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi. Al-Awlaki, who is currently living in Yemen and reportedly has contacts with al Qaeda, posted a message on his Web site Nov. 9 praising Hasan’s actions. Despite Hasan’s connections to al-Awlaki and other jihadists, it is unknown at this point if he was even aware of al-Wahayshi’s recent message calling for simple attacks, and therefore it is impossible to tell if his attack was in response to it.

However, one thing that is certain is that investigators examining Hasan’s computer hard drive, e-mail traffic and Internet history will be looking into that possibility, along with other indications that Hasan was linked to radicals.

We noted last week that by their very nature, individual actors and small cells are very difficult for the government to detect. They must somehow identify themselves by contacting a government informant or another person who reports them to the authorities, attend a militant training camp or conduct correspondence with a person or organization under government scrutiny. In the Hasan case, it now appears that Hasan did self-identify by making radical statements to people he worked with, who reported him to the authorities. It also appears that he had correspondence with people such as al-Awlaki, whom the government was monitoring. Because of this behavior, Hasan brought himself to the attention of the Department of Defense, the FBI and the CIA.

The fact that Hasan was able to commit this attack after bringing government attention to himself could be due to a number of factors. Chief among them is the fact that it is tactically impossible for a government to identify every aspiring militant actor and to pre-empt every act of violence. The degree of difficulty is increased greatly if an actor does indeed act alone and does not give any overt clues through his actions or his communications of his intent to attack. Because of this, the Hasan case provides an excellent opportunity to examine national security investigations and their utility and limitations.

The Nature of Intelligence Investigations

The FBI will typically open up an intelligence investigation (usually referred to as a national security investigation) in any case where there is an indication or allegation that a person is involved in terrorist activity but there is no evidence that a specific law has been broken. Many times these investigations are opened up due to a lead passed by the CIA, National Security Agency or a foreign liaison intelligence service. Other times an FBI investigation can come as a spin-off from another FBI counterterrorism investigation already under way or be prompted by a piece of information collected by an FBI informant or even by a tip from a concerned citizen — like the flight instructors who alerted the FBI to the suspicious behavior of some foreign flight students prior to the 9/11 attacks. In such a case, the FBI case agent in charge of the investigation will open a preliminary inquiry, which gives the agent a limited window of time to look into the matter. If no indication of criminal activity is found, the preliminary inquiry must be closed unless the agent receives authorization from the special agent in charge of his division and FBI headquarters to extend it.

If, during the preliminary inquiry, the investigating agents find probable cause that a crime has been committed, the FBI will open a full-fledged criminal investigation into the case, similar to what we saw in the case of Luqman Ameen Abdullah and his followers in Detroit.

One of the large problems in national security investigations is separating the wheat from the chaff. Many leads are based on erroneous information or a misidentification of the suspect — there is a huge issue associated with the confusion caused by the transliteration of Arabic names and the fact that there are many people bearing the same names. Jihadists also have the tendency to use multiple names and identities. And there are many cases in which people will falsely report a person to the FBI out of malice. Because of these factors, national security investigations proceed slowly and usually do not involve much (if any) contact with the suspect and his close associates. If the suspect is a real militant planning a terrorist attack, investigators do not want to tip him off, and if he is innocent, they do not want to sully his reputation by showing up and overtly interviewing everyone he knows. Due to its controversial history of domestic intelligence activities, the FBI has become acutely aware of its responsibility to protect privacy rights and civil liberties guaranteed by the Constitution and other laws.

And the rights guaranteed under the Constitution do complicate these national security investigations. It is not illegal for someone to say that Muslims should attack U.S. troops due to their operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, or that more Muslims should conduct attacks like the June 1 shooting at a recruiting center in Little Rock, Ark. — things that Hasan is reported to have said. Radical statements and convictions are not illegal — although they certainly would appear to be conduct unbecoming a U.S. Army officer. (We will leave to others the discussion of the difficulties in dealing with problem officers who are minorities and doctors and who owe several years of service in return for their education.)

There are also many officers and enlisted soldiers in the U.S. Army who own personal weapons and who use them for self-defense, target shooting or hunting. There is nothing extraordinary or illegal about a U.S. Army major owning personal weapons. With no articulable violation of U.S. law, the FBI would have very little to act upon in a case like Hasan’s. Instead, even if they found cause to extend their preliminary inquiry, they would be pretty much limited to monitoring his activities (and perhaps his communications, with a court order) and waiting for a law to be violated. In the Hasan case, it would appear that the FBI did not find probable cause that a law had been violated before he opened fire at Fort Hood. Although perhaps if the FBI had been watching his activities closely and with an eye toward “the how” of terrorist attacks, they might have noticed him conducting preoperational surveillance of the readiness center and even a dry run of the attack.

Of course, in addition to just looking for violations of the law, the other main thrust of a national security investigation is to determine whom the suspect is connected to and whom he is talking to or planning with. In past cases, such investigations have uncovered networks of jihadist actors working together in the United States, Canada, Europe and elsewhere. However, if all Hasan did in his correspondence with people such as al-Awlaki was exercise his First Amendment right to hold radical convictions, and if he did not engage in any type of conspiracy to conduct an attack, he did not break the law.

Another issue that complicates national security cases is that they are almost always classified at the secret level or above. This is understandable, considering they are often opened based upon intelligence produced by sensitive intelligence programs. However, this classification means that only those people with the proper clearance and an established need to know can be briefed on the case. It is not at all unusual for the FBI to visit a high-ranking official at another agency to brief the official on the fact that the FBI is conducting a classified national security investigation involving a person working for the official’s agency. The rub is that they will frequently tell the official that he or she is not at liberty to share details of the investigation with other individuals in the agency because they do not have a clear need to know. The FBI agent will also usually ask the person briefed not to take any action against the target of the investigation, so that the investigation is not compromised. While some people will disagree with the FBI’s determination of who really needs to know about the investigation and go on to brief a wider audience, many officials are cowed by the FBI and sit on the information.

Of course, the size of an organization is also a factor in the dissemination of information. The Department of Defense and the U.S. Army are large organizations, and it is possible that officials at the Pentagon or the Army’s Criminal Investigation Command (still known by its old acronym CID) headquarters at Fort Belvoir, Va., were briefed on the case and that local officials at Fort Hood were not. The Associated Press is now reporting that the FBI had alerted a Defense Criminal Investigative Service agent assigned to the Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) in Washington about Hasan’s contacts with al-Awlaki, and ABC reports that the Defense Department is denying the FBI notified them. It would appear that the finger-pointing and bureaucratic blame-shifting normally associated with such cases has begun.

Even more severe problems would have plagued the dissemination of information from the CIA to local commanders and CID officers at Fort Hood. Despite the intelligence reforms put in place after the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. government still faces large obstacles when it comes to sharing intelligence information with law enforcement personnel.

Criminal Acts vs. Terrorism

So far, the Hasan shooting investigation is being run by the Army CID, and the FBI has been noticeably — and uncharacteristically — absent from the scene. As the premier law enforcement agency in the United States, the FBI will often assume authority over investigations where there is even a hint of terrorism. Since 9/11, the number of FBI/JTTF offices across the country has been dramatically increased, and the JTTFs are specifically charged with investigating cases that may involve terrorism. Therefore, we find the FBI’s absence in this case to be quite out of the ordinary.

However, with Hasan being a member of the armed forces, the victims being soldiers or army civilian employees and the incident occurring at Fort Hood, the case would seem to fall squarely under the mantle of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). From a prosecutorial perspective, a homicide trial under the UCMJ should be very tidy and could be quickly concluded. It will not involve all the potential loose ends that could pop up in a federal terrorism trial, especially when those loose ends involve what the FBI and CIA knew about Hasan, when they learned it and who they told. Also, politically, there are some who would like to see the Hasan case remain a criminal matter rather than a case of terrorism. Following the shooting death of Luqman Ameen Abdullah and considering the delicate relationship between Muslim advocacy groups and the U.S. government, some people would rather see Hasan portrayed as a mentally disturbed criminal than as an ideologically driven lone wolf.

Despite the CID taking the lead in prosecuting the case, the classified national security investigation by the CIA and FBI into Hasan and his possible connections to jihadist elements is undoubtedly continuing. Senior members of the government will certainly demand to know if Hasan had any confederates, if he was part of a bigger plot and if there are more attacks to come. Several congressmen and senators are also calling for hearings into the case, and if such hearings occur, they will certainly produce an abundance of interesting information pertaining to Hasan and the national security investigation of his activities.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by SeaHawkDriver-B » 11 Nov 2009, 17:21

Image

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by OdDuMet » 12 Nov 2009, 08:37

tejohnson wrote:Interesting read:

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20091111 ... challenges" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Hasan Case: Overt Clues and Tactical Challenges
November 11, 2009 | 1841 GMT

By Scott Stewart and Fred Burton

Stratfor is awesome. It has been accurately described as something of a private CIA, and is run by ex-intelligence agents with a vast amount of experience. I have a paid subscription and I wont pay for much in the way of information. It's amazing how very little of what you hear in the mainstream news has *anything* to do with what is actually going on with respect to geopolitics....and how little you do hear about what really is going on and why.

They have a free subscription option on their www site somewhere. You only get a couple articles a week for the free subscription, but I highly recommend it.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by toyslr » 12 Nov 2009, 09:21

Article makes ALOT of sense....

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by EARS » 12 Nov 2009, 09:39

It does that... make alot of sense.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by OdDuMet » 12 Nov 2009, 13:25

.

I know this is a very serious situation, but here's a little related humor to lighten things up a bit and blow off a bit of steam in a healthy way....


.
Image

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by MinuteofZombie » 12 Nov 2009, 13:29

I agree - very informative and perceptive article.

What I am most impressed by is the lack of assumption. It seems like the majority of information circulating around out there regarding Hasan's motives, the actions of the Feds, the fact that this was able to occur following an informal federal investigation about his contact with the Yemeni imam; are all speculative and/or assumptions being floated by surface-trawlers like the talking heads who are missing all the depth and context.

I am actually soon to be a new fiveseven owner myself. It sounds silly, but I have always admired the FN weapons platform and decided, when I saw this happen, that it was time to get one finally. I, personally, endeavor not to be an alarmist, but too many factors are stacking one-on-top-of-the-other to deny the practical possibility of a future ban. Even if they aren't banned, there's a good chance that the good ole' law of supply and "NRA-generating-panic-laden-emails" will take hold and prices will skyrocket.

Greetings.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by jgreenberg01 » 12 Nov 2009, 13:30

OdDuMet wrote:.

I know this is a very serious situation, but here's a little related humor to lighten things up a bit and blow off a bit of steam in a healthy way....
A Muslim, an Imam and Secretary Napolitano walk into a bar...

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by hookdriver » 14 Nov 2009, 08:51

A good opinion piece from WND on the disarming of soldiers on our own posts. I know some don't like WND, but this is opinion -- not news.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=115985

Contains this great quote attributed to Thomas Paine:
Could the peaceable principle of the Quakers be universally established, arms and the art of war would be wholly extirpated: But we live not in a world of angels. … I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly agree with all the world to lay aside the use of arms, and settle matters by negotiation: but unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and thank heaven he has put it in my power.

I didn't realize that Clinton made such a large change in '93. I didn't join up until '97. Any members here share what weapon control was like on post prior to '93?

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by romer522 » 17 Nov 2009, 10:49

Larue Tactical is doing a fundraiser for the Fort Hood victims families. 100% of the donation goes to the proper charity and you get a free fridge-magnet beverage entry tool as well.


http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactic ... bok?no=403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Rapier1772 » 23 Nov 2009, 19:31

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fort_hood_shooting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fort Hood suspect may use insanity defense
FORT WORTH, Texas – An Army psychiatrist accused of killing 13 people during an attack on his Texas post will likely plead not guilty to the charges against him and may use an insanity defense at his military trial, his attorney said Monday.

John Galligan, the civilian attorney for Maj. Nidal Hasan, said he is considering an insanity defense among other options, but that it's too early to determine his defense strategy.

"Based on the evidence thus far, his mental status must be raised," Galligan told The Associated Press by phone from his office near Fort Hood, about 130 miles southwest of Dallas. "Anybody who allegedly engages in conduct that is completely contradictory to his lifestyle and military career — an insanity defense has to be considered."

Hasan has been charged with 13 counts of premeditated murder in the Nov. 5 shooting at Fort Hood, and military officials have said they may file more charges. More than two dozen others were wounded in the shooting spree, which happened at a building where soldiers finalize their wills and are medically screened before they are deployed.

Galligan said military law requires his client to plead not guilty if prosecutors seek the death penalty, but he said that decision has not been made.

Hasan remains in intensive care at a San Antonio military hospital, where he was taken after being shot during the attack. At a hearing in his hospital room Saturday, Hasan was ordered to remain in custody until trial.

Galligan said he is frustrated because prosecutors are taking too long to respond to his questions and requests. He said he has asked why no witnesses were allowed to testify during Saturday's hearing, and why it was closed to the news media. He said he had planned to question Hasan's commander, who in documents indicated Hasan would be moved to an unspecified hospital but did not say when.

Fort Hood officials did not immediately return calls seeking comment.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 23 Nov 2009, 21:35

I read that earlier today... who wants to place bets on what the outcome will be if he does plead insanity?

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by romer522 » 23 Nov 2009, 21:38

If he doesn't get executed I'm gonna be severely disappointed in our country.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Wollychop » 23 Nov 2009, 21:38

It doesn't stop there. The 9/11 f***s are takling about pleading guilty with the knowlege of a public hearing.

... I don't know what our leaders are thinking, giving prisoners of war a pulpit.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 23 Nov 2009, 21:41

I know what they're thinking... "what can we do to bring this country down from the inside?"

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Cyberfly » 24 Nov 2009, 12:42

f3rr37 wrote:I know what they're thinking... "what can we do to bring this country down from the inside?"
Yeah, I think that was the internal Memo straight from the President's Desk... :wall:
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 24 Nov 2009, 12:50

Cyberfly wrote: Yeah, I think that was the internal Memo straight from the President's Desk... :wall:
Nah, Obama is just a puppet, just an image, he's nobody compared to the people who are really holding the cards.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by MrSlippyFist » 24 Nov 2009, 12:53

My how are fore fathers would cringe at the thought of the current state of the Union.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by msw » 24 Nov 2009, 16:04

I saw this question before but didn't see an answer--sorry if I missed it:

Does anyone know which ammo this coward used? I realize it's a morbid question, but I've a professional interest, as a general & trauma surgeon. I suspect SS197, but that's just a guess. Not looking to offend anyone here.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by EARS » 24 Nov 2009, 17:00

I don't recall it was ever reported?

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by panzermk2wife » 24 Nov 2009, 17:04

As far as I know it hasn't been confirmed by the Military or Government Goons yet.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Rapier1772 » 24 Nov 2009, 17:52

I've seen it posted by an unreliable source that it was the mil 190. But, they had the pic from wikipedia with the blue tips :lmao:
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Wollychop » 24 Nov 2009, 18:28

Remember that SS190 is very difficult to obtain. As he purchased the weapon legally at a gun store he probably also just bought what was on the shelves.

Some folks might come to the conclusion that since he is military he would have access to the SS190. Even IF Fort Hood had units on the installation equipped with 5.7x28mm platforms, it's not like he could just go to their ASP and walk out with a case. Unless he purchased some SS190 off gunbroker at hundreds of dollars a box, I highly doubt that he used the AP.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by msw » 25 Nov 2009, 12:26

I've looked all over and couldn't find it. Frankly, like many others, I'm amazed there hasn't been more media coverage on this infamous, cop-killing, caliber. (Yes--that was sarcasm for those who might not be certain)

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by SeaHawkDriver-B » 25 Nov 2009, 14:36

A simple Glock17 with +2 extension holds what... 19 rounds, maybe more, I've heard guys say up to 20 in a G17 +1 in the chamber. The FiveseveN isn't that unique when it comes to capacity, plenty of makes out there can stuff lots of lead. With factory loads the only adavantage he had with the FsN is low recoil to keep on target, there was NO AP-capability, nor was there any needed; in fact, if he had used something like .40 short-n-weak in JHP he probably would have had a lot more killed and less wounded.

Highly doubt that a token islamic doctor had any access to gov't issue ammo whatsoever. The closest he would have come to ammo was maybe an annual qual on the base range. I've never even seen a P90 used by MP's or base guards; most people just watch McGyver twirl one around on SG1 :laugh: .

Even if you're on an Army shooting range they do a pretty thorough brass count, and SHOULD do a search of your person for any remaining live rounds. Last year I did 7 quals on Fort Jackson and they've put procedures in place to make it very difficult for anyone to walk out of there with live rounds.

I think as soon as the libs do their research the backlash on the FsN will stop, becuase they know their arguments and propganda claims won't hold up to the facts.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by gw45acp » 25 Nov 2009, 14:59

Lib arguments rarely have any basis in fact. The Brady Bunch will continue to spread their propaganda and lies as long as they have the funding.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by blueorison » 25 Nov 2009, 17:09

I never understood why people keep referring to FsN mags as "hi-cap". This is bs. CZ's and other older generation 9mm guns have had 16-19 round capacities, including the aforementioned glocks, etc.

1 or 2 more rounds with the FsN mags isn't a great big deal especially since it's such a wimpy caliber compared to 9x19.

Seriously doubt he got ss190. Most likely 192 or 197
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by EARS » 25 Nov 2009, 17:42

"High Cap" came as the result of the Brady Bill. It generally referres to any magazine that can hold over 10 rounds.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Wollychop » 25 Nov 2009, 17:52

The Bradys had help, even from inside the industry. Ol' Ruger comes to mind.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Cyberfly » 26 Nov 2009, 01:17

And now their newest release, the SR9 has a 17+1 capacity. Nice. :huh:
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by helodad » 11 Jan 2010, 12:44

so 197 or 192 anyone, anyone. :ponder:

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 11 Jan 2010, 12:49

SS197 is my bet.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by gw45acp » 11 Jan 2010, 13:33

If it wasn't SS197, I would be very surprised.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by maxx3933 » 16 Jan 2010, 22:34

I would say he used the SS197. That round with the polymer tip splatters on impact and then
tumbles creating a grievious wound cavity. That would be my choice for stopping power of this
round in a situation no vests or armor are worn. If vest and armor were worn then the SS190
would be the practical choice. But for most us out here...I think the SS197 really works.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by panzermk2 » 16 Jan 2010, 23:16

Except the SS197 does not tumble. The other commonly available rounds SS195 and SS192 are the ones that tumble.
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 17 Jan 2010, 00:06

maxx3933 wrote:That round with the polymer tip splatters on impact and then tumbles creating a grievious wound cavity.
LOL, that doesn't even make any sense... how does a round both splatter and tumble?

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by Rapier1772 » 17 Jan 2010, 07:22

Fuzzy - the splat frags tumble
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by panzermk2 » 17 Jan 2010, 07:58

You get three wound channels. A small 4 inch from the polymer tip, The lead core and the third which is the jacket. The lead core gets the most penetration.





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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by maxx3933 » 17 Jan 2010, 08:33

LOL my bad...I'm relatively new to this Five-Seven addiction. Between the SS192 or SS195 which
does more damage?

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by panzermk2 » 17 Jan 2010, 09:15

Other then batch to batch velocity differences they perform about the same.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by maxx3933 » 17 Jan 2010, 09:49

Thanks for the info. I've got a good stash of both SS192 and SS197. My next investment will
probably be Elite Ammo.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by blueorison » 17 Jan 2010, 10:19

it splatters... magically reforms... then tumbles again....
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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by maxx3933 » 17 Jan 2010, 11:43

What I meant is the tip fragments then the projectile tumbles. I admit the word splatter
was a poor choice. :monkey:

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by maxx3933 » 17 Jan 2010, 11:47

Which now I stand corrected the 195 and 192 round is the one that tumbles.

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Re: Ft. Hood

Post by f3rr37 » 17 Jan 2010, 13:27

maxx3933 wrote:What I meant is the tip fragments then the projectile tumbles. I admit the word splatter was a poor choice. :monkey:
The tip is just plastic, it really doesn't do much more than help the BC (ballistic co-efficient) and with fragmentation. The SS192, T194, SS195, SS198 (FN Restricts to LEO), and EA's super/ultraRapTOR, all use the same projectile that tumbles.

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