DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

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Gatorr
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DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by Gatorr » 07 Jun 2009, 11:35

Okay, here's the scoop: has anyone seen that new series on Spike called "Deadliest Warrior"? It's fun to watch the weapons, but the "expert's" opinions on which warrior is better than another is usually a complete knee-jerk-reaction of an opinion, and they don't take nearly enough variables into account.

Anyway, just thought I would see if anyone had an opinion on the episode "Green Beret vs. Spetznaz" - in which the Mossberg 590 pump went up against the semi-auto Saiga 12. To the "experts", the Saiga easily had the edge, since it is a semi-auto.

Here's my UNexpert opinion: The reason the US military-issue shotguns are pumps, is because they are FAR more reliable. And, I have no experience with one, but I've heard that Saiga's are poorly reliable even when compared to other semi-autos.

Like the old cliche - In a SD or Spec-Ops situation, speed and accuracy are important, but reliability is critical.

Any opinions? Agree or disagree? :gavel:

stg2ahn
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by stg2ahn » 07 Jun 2009, 15:43

if 12ga shells are loaded for an extended time in the shotgun, the plastic shells become crimped and lobsided due to the constant vertical pressure between the bolt and magazine.
This makes feeding an issue.

Also the size of the gun really isn't streamlined due to the magazine sticking out.


I love the saiga 12, but would have to chose a good ol pump for reliability and mossberg is second to none, IMHO.

An AK47 maybe be the most reliable gun in the world, but an AK design on 12ga shells might not be.

Plus, combat loading can make up for quick follow up shots on a pump.

Wollychop
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by Wollychop » 07 Jun 2009, 15:46

I agree on your observation about those shows. I just stopped watching those shows like "Top 10" "Future Weapons" "Deadliest (insert something here)" yadda yadda. The Discovery Channel and the History Channel have really gone downhill. I know you are talking about Spike TV, but there's really no difference.

A buddy of mine said "There's dumb, and there's Discovery Channel Dumb." :laugh:

toyslr
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by toyslr » 07 Jun 2009, 15:54

I own a 590 and love it! Have never fired a Saiga but understand from those that own them the are dependable and are becoming a cult classic. When and if it comes to using a shotgun, I will grab my 590 everytime over my 870 Police Magnum
or Benelli Super 90.

Gatorr
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by Gatorr » 08 Jun 2009, 07:16

Wollychop wrote:I agree on your observation about those shows. I just stopped watching those shows like "Top 10" "Future Weapons" "Deadliest (insert something here)" yadda yadda. The Discovery Channel and the History Channel have really gone downhill. I know you are talking about Spike TV, but there's really no difference.

A buddy of mine said "There's dumb, and there's Discovery Channel Dumb." :laugh:
Yeah, I totally agree, Wolly. I love Mythbusters, but even that is going downhill, and I can't stand watching anything else on the "documentary" channels for long anymore. Like probably every other guy on this forum, I consider myself a "manly man", but even I can only stand so many explosions...
Last edited by Gatorr on 08 Jun 2009, 10:10, edited 1 time in total.

Gatorr
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by Gatorr » 08 Jun 2009, 07:19

stg2ahn wrote:if 12ga shells are loaded for an extended time in the shotgun, the plastic shells become crimped and lobsided due to the constant vertical pressure between the bolt and magazine.
This makes feeding an issue.

Also the size of the gun really isn't streamlined due to the magazine sticking out.


I love the saiga 12, but would have to chose a good ol pump for reliability and mossberg is second to none, IMHO.

An AK47 maybe be the most reliable gun in the world, but an AK design on 12ga shells might not be.

Plus, combat loading can make up for quick follow up shots on a pump.
Thanks for the info, stg2ahn. That is kinda the stuff that I have heard, too, and those Saiga issues would make me think twice about betting my life on one, even if the "Deadliest Warrior" guys think it's better...

stg2ahn
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by stg2ahn » 08 Jun 2009, 19:29

I know agparms.com makes 10 rd mags. Tromix.com also makes some custom shotguns.

NO doubt saigas are Badas*.

toyslr
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by toyslr » 08 Jun 2009, 20:30

Was on Tromix's site the other day and shows they are no longer taking orders. Guess their booked up thru the end of the year?

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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by flyingirish04 » 08 Jun 2009, 20:48

Those idiot fan boys that run that show are straight of the POSforum. That show is unbelieveably stupid. I wached for about ten minutes before I had enough of the stupid cliche catch phrases that those geeks throw out like too often. Complete and utter waste of ten minutes of my life.
Killed Two Stones with One Bird.

stg2ahn
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by stg2ahn » 09 Jun 2009, 03:33

Did they have the " pirates vs. ninjas" yet????

SSBiggun
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by SSBiggun » 09 Jun 2009, 14:23

All auto loaders can have reliability issues. So can pump guns. I had a 500 that broke the extractor. Needless to say it was out of action until repaired and I had to use a cleaning rod to get the shell casing out of the chamber. Saiga's are not well controlled quality wise from the factory and the term" Vodka Special " is used when refering to them. After some work and some upgraded componants both of mine run 100% once you set up the gas setting for the shells you are using. 12 ga ammunition has a great deal of variation between manufactures and is the biggest issue with auto-loaders.
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by toyslr » 09 Jun 2009, 15:37

How many rounds that drum hold? :drool:

SSBiggun
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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by SSBiggun » 09 Jun 2009, 19:40

toyslr wrote:How many rounds that drum hold? :drool:
20

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Re: DEBATE: Mossberg 590 vs. Saiga

Post by SSBiggun » 10 Jun 2009, 07:04

Gatorr wrote:Okay, here's the scoop: has anyone seen that new series on Spike called "Deadliest Warrior"? It's fun to watch the weapons, but the "expert's" opinions on which warrior is better than another is usually a complete knee-jerk-reaction of an opinion, and they don't take nearly enough variables into account.

Anyway, just thought I would see if anyone had an opinion on the episode "Green Beret vs. Spetznaz" - in which the Mossberg 590 pump went up against the semi-auto Saiga 12. To the "experts", the Saiga easily had the edge, since it is a semi-auto.

Here's my UNexpert opinion: The reason the US military-issue shotguns are pumps, is because they are FAR more reliable. And, I have no experience with one, but I've heard that Saiga's are poorly reliable even when compared to other semi-autos.

Like the old cliche - In a SD or Spec-Ops situation, speed and accuracy are important, but reliability is critical.

Any opinions? Agree or disagree? :gavel:
when i watched this episode i noted that the saiga they used was an iz 109 and thats the commercial import saiga and not the one the russian spetz use. the saiga they issue is a completly different animal with its magwell and last round bolt hold open and the factory 8 rd mags with thier molded in reinforcement are damn near indestructible.
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