Vs. Black bear?

n16ht5 · Post by **n16ht5** » 21 Mar 2009, 15:18

Well I don't have a .44mag yet, and I hike a lot in the PNW with black bears and cougars (yes, have seen both while out and about). Would my 5.7 with some EA ammo or ss192 be able to do much for me if I had problems with bear or cougar? I don't run into brown around here. I think a good shot placed to the head would probably stop one? Or would it just bounce off like a pebble and make it angry? Thanks

Chris

PS. I do have a 12ga w slugs and an FNAR, but Its too hard to hike with either

oregunbob · Post by **oregunbob** » 21 Mar 2009, 15:54

I'd go with a Glock 20 with some of Elite's Ammo. A pissed off bear is the closest thing hell on earth you'll ever see.... of course it's not a brown bear... but all the same, the 5.7 was developed to put down homo sapiens and go through soft body armor, not one of North America's heartiest mammals.

My 2 cents.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 21 Mar 2009, 16:58

I wouldn't recommend it.

Where are you living?

Post by **Rapier1772** » 21 Mar 2009, 17:37

Personally, I might risk it for cougar (not intentionally hunting but as a just-in-case for hiking) but if there is a good potential for bear, I'd recommend something bigger. I have no data to back up my thinking other than what I have seen a bear withstand & continue running after being shot.

Post by **Esteves** » 21 Mar 2009, 17:43

It's just fine for bear...

... as long as they're pink or rainbow, NOT black, brown, griz, or polar bear.

(

for the humor impaired. )

n16ht5 · Post by **n16ht5** » 21 Mar 2009, 19:29

That's kind of what I was thinking. I have been looking around for glock 20's, 29s, and ruger .44s, but wondering if I should go for the 57 or the pepper spray in the meantime

n16ht5 · Post by **n16ht5** » 21 Mar 2009, 19:30

I live in WA, so not overly worried about it.

Tripletap · Post by **Tripletap** » 22 Mar 2009, 17:29

I carry a Glock 29 with 10mm DT Solids when I hike in black bear country. It's good for two and four legged predators. You can carry the 5.7, just take along a slower more chewy friend. :laugh:

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 22 Mar 2009, 17:53

I have a SW 629ES with a trigger job and magnaported snubnose (in 44 Mag). I trust it with my life. Backup is a Glock 29. I wouldn't go any smaller with the bears.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 22 Mar 2009, 18:09

HORSE FEATHERS!
FiveseveN works just fine for bears. I just wouldn't try to shoot anything larger than a Koala bear and expect positive results... :thumb:

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 22 Mar 2009, 20:36

30rnd mags and plenty of EA. Surely you can get appropriate shot placement in 30 rounds. 'nuff said

Krull · Post by **Krull** » 23 Mar 2009, 08:30

cougars=go for it,they're not super animals,5.7 should knock one right out (everybody I ever asked about them says they shoot them with .22WMR)

Black bear......... :skep: how big weight wise? if it's the smaller type I'd say .357 mag at the least and only if loaded with something like 158gr FMJ.

Otherwise the sumbiatch is gonna eat you and s**t you out-then die.

FSNTAC · Post by **FSNTAC** » 23 Mar 2009, 08:34

the 5.7 would be just dandy.

To really lighten your load, you know what they say about a well placed .22!

Post by **Grantness** » 23 Mar 2009, 13:13

Cougars I should think wouldnt be much of a problem.

Most black bears arent very big. If you run into a juvie, you might have a chance if you've got time to unload on them w/ good shot placement. I wouldnt reccommend it, but its certainly better than nothing. I run into juvie's all the time where I live...not more than 300lbs. I wouldnt think twice about using my FsN w/ some of my reloads on them (the small ones that is). I almost got to put my money where my mouth is last year when my dog ran into a small black bear and started chasing him. Fortunately, the bear was afraid of my 75lbs golden retriever and took off. If someone can take a 200+ pound pig with SS197, then w/ vastly superior ammo...who knows what you could do

UltraRaptor might be OK for a cougar, but against a bear (assuming u arent going to take a headshot) it doesnt have the kind of penetration that you'd want. As I seem to recall, the UltraRaptor wasnt getting more than 9 inches of penetration (which is just fine for your average bi-pedal predator). If you're going to have to pick something, I'd pick ExTerminators....for max penetration. Protectors wouldnt be a bad choice either.

Oh, and a very reliable source once told me that he knew a guy who killed a problem moose w/ his FsN. Prob a head shot, but still...thats pretty impressive. :ponder:

Post by **jmz5** » 23 Mar 2009, 15:44

I definitely wouldn't try 5.7x28 against a bear, it can be hazardous to your health.

romer522 · Post by **romer522** » 23 Mar 2009, 19:15

It might work well for the make-a-ton-of-noise tactic :clap:

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 23 Mar 2009, 19:37

The common wisdom of gun writers in the advertising-loyal gunzines say that 44 Mag is the minimum recommended in the back country if dangerous game is about. I know that cougars are fairly soft sided, but since you are carrying only one handgun, it should be enough to handle Yogi and Boo Boo.

DAUG · Post by **DAUG** » 24 Mar 2009, 00:54

5.7 on pigs and cougars, yes! Bears, no way, not recommended. It would just piss them off and it would be the fastest to way to find out you're not alpha on the food chain!

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 24 Mar 2009, 03:17

Somebody just go shoot one already

Post by **Cyberfly** » 24 Mar 2009, 09:44

Wait. If the bear were big enough to eat you in one bite, and wasn't really big on chewing, then you might could use your FsN to shoot your way out of his gullet...but...

:skep:

oregunbob · Post by **oregunbob** » 24 Mar 2009, 13:31

Mister Freeze wrote:Somebody just go shoot one already

Oh yeah, that's all we need..... I can see the headline now.

"Notorius Cop Killer Handgun used in the killing of Zoo bear. PETA demands ban on new deadly "bear-piercing" ammunition."

or is it?

"Police have removed a notorious Cop Killer "Five Seven" handgun from the stomach of local Zoo bear after autopsy. The bear died from his injuries two days after a deranged shooter entered his enclosure and began firing. The shooter (who has not been identified due to being partially consumed) died at the scene. Police are consulting a firearms specfic internet community as to why someone would attempt this."

Post by **f3rr37** » 24 Mar 2009, 13:38

:lmao:

Post by **f3rr37** » 24 Mar 2009, 13:42

We do have the right to arm bears don't we? Oh wait, bear arms... my bad.

DAUG · Post by **DAUG** » 24 Mar 2009, 15:38

This thread has gone crazy AWOL! LMAOL!

Post by **Esteves** » 24 Mar 2009, 15:40

Not really. Nobody's talking about football yet.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 24 Mar 2009, 16:17

Did somebody say Foosball!?

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 24 Mar 2009, 17:11

Football? As in the Chicago BEARS?

Post by **jmz5** » 25 Mar 2009, 05:06

oregunbob wrote:
Mister Freeze wrote:Somebody just go shoot one already
Oh yeah, that's all we need..... I can see the headline now.

"Notorius Cop Killer Handgun used in the killing of Zoo bear. PETA demands ban on new deadly "bear-piercing" ammunition."

or is it?

"Police have removed a notorious Cop Killer "Five Seven" handgun from the stomach of local Zoo bear after autopsy. The bear died from his injuries two days after a deranged shooter entered his enclosure and began firing. The shooter (who has not been identified due to being partially consumed) died at the scene. Police are consulting a firearms specfic internet community as to why someone would attempt this."

:lmao:

Krull · Post by **Krull** » 26 Mar 2009, 05:56

oregunbob wrote:
Mister Freeze wrote:Somebody just go shoot one already
Oh yeah, that's all we need..... I can see the headline now.

"Notorius Cop Killer Handgun used in the killing of Zoo bear. PETA demands ban on new deadly "bear-piercing" ammunition."

or is it?

"Police have removed a notorious Cop Killer "Five Seven" handgun from the stomach of local Zoo bear after autopsy. The bear died from his injuries two days after a deranged shooter entered his enclosure and began firing. The shooter (who has not been identified due to being partially consumed) died at the scene. Police are consulting a firearms specfic internet community as to why someone would attempt this."

:lmao:

Monkey shines :monkey: is what this thread has become.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 26 Mar 2009, 06:25

I dunno though. A bucket of water and you're SOL. With bear arms you could tear them to pieces!! Arghh!

MontanaSheriff · Post by **MontanaSheriff** » 07 Apr 2009, 12:36

I wouldn't personally use anything smaller than a .44 magnum on a bear. I carry my S&W 629 Classic when I'm in the back country. The .44 would make one hell of a mess of any animal's blood pump or brain pan.

My rule of thumb would be that I wouldn't use the 5.7 on anything large enough to eat me. On anything larger, you might be able to drop it, but it will most likely get very mad first and try to chew you up.

-MontanaSheriff

Post by **panzermk2** » 07 Apr 2009, 21:01

378 Weatherby Mag.

Tripletap · Post by **Tripletap** » 08 Apr 2009, 15:55

Just don't shoot one in Alabama!
http://www.al.com/news/press-register/m ... xml&coll=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

$5,000.00 fine!

dawgfan · Post by **dawgfan** » 08 Apr 2009, 20:31

:laugh: Some how, I get the impression that none of those ol' boyz are the brightest light bulbs in the chandlier.

n16ht5 · Post by **n16ht5** » 10 Apr 2009, 11:43

Burps. I got a 10mm glock with some double tap ammo. Maybe ill get a .44 next.

Boo Boo · Post by **Boo Boo** » 31 May 2009, 23:57

well if its the usg i guess depends on how fast you can pull the trigger with 20 rounds.

i would go .40 or higher. i might carry a extra clip if i go up.

gotants · Post by **gotants** » 01 Jun 2009, 03:23

Boo Boo wrote:well if its the usg i guess depends on how fast you can pull the trigger with 20 rounds.

i would go .40 or higher. i might carry a extra clip if i go up.

So you clip his ears back and do what?

Wollychop · Post by **Wollychop** » 01 Jun 2009, 05:09

You are ruthless, gotants :laugh:

Post by **f3rr37** » 01 Jun 2009, 07:48

:lmao:

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 01 Jun 2009, 08:08

shot placement HELL!.... Kinda hard to place a shot when a 500+ lb black bear is charging down on you. Minimum would be a 10 m.m. or even a .41 mag

ynoty3k · Post by **ynoty3k** » 01 Jun 2009, 23:17

gotants wrote:
Boo Boo wrote:well if its the usg i guess depends on how fast you can pull the trigger with 20 rounds.

i would go .40 or higher. i might carry a extra clip if i go up.
So you clip his ears back and do what?

Damn you Goants, I was just about to ask him what he'd do with a clip of ammo and a FsN, haha. Maybe he just secretly loves M1 Garands too much, and or Kar98's or some other such. Maybe even a C96, hahaha.

I wonder if the laser c96 pistol could take out a black bear.... It could be easily deflected if that bear was a Jedi after all

p.s. cyberfly a koala bear is a misnomer, its actually a marsupial. Gummy bears and rottweilers are could be equally funny.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 02 Jun 2009, 12:32

But its still a koala BEAR....like a Teddy BEAR. Or a Panda BEAR. Or BEAR-assed nekkid. Its all the same. Shot placement, right?

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 02 Jun 2009, 17:00

You can't argue with shot placement. A .22 thru the ear or a .50BMG; dead is dead. Fun Factor, however, lies in the heart of the survivor.

ynoty3k · Post by **ynoty3k** » 02 Jun 2009, 22:04

Cyber fly, you were joking about "Bear" ass naked right? a painful pun I hope.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 03 Jun 2009, 12:39

Watch out where he place THAT shot.... :lmao:

St Dark · Post by **St Dark** » 27 Aug 2009, 17:16

toyslr wrote:shot placement HELL!.... Kinda hard to place a shot when a 500+ lb black bear is charging down on you. Minimum would be a 10 m.m. or even a .41 mag

If he drops to all fours, he can approach speeds of 30mph. While minimizing his profile and presenting a thick skull at a nice, deflective angle.

Flamethrower!!

Wollychop · Post by **Wollychop** » 27 Aug 2009, 17:24

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 27 Aug 2009, 19:03

A couple months ago, I would have not even considered the question. Over the years, I dispatched many black bears hit by vehicles as a state trooper. After testing the EA S4 and seeing the devastation it produced, I cannot imagine a black bear living through a chest shot. As it enters, it shreds everything- bone,meat, and adipose in its path. We had police present from several major agaencies working on this and everybody was stunned. I found I had to rethink my view on small calibers.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 28 Aug 2009, 05:25

Ah, but the skull plate on a bear is THICK, Padre. I don't think I'd want to be the one to test that theory in the field. :ponder:

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 28 Aug 2009, 05:28

I figured you'd hold up his tail, Fly, while I gave him a 5.7 enema from 50 feet away. :lmao: :lmao: :p :laugh:

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 28 Aug 2009, 06:16

Cyberfly wrote:Ah, but the skull plate on a bear is THICK, Padre. I don't think I'd want to be the one to test that theory in the field. :ponder:

I'll do it!

Post by **Cyberfly** » 28 Aug 2009, 06:41

Ah, but Padre, bears have these short little stubby tails. No need to hold them up. Just point and click! Like online shopping! hehehehe

Post by **Grantness** » 28 Aug 2009, 12:29

cyberfly wrote:Ah, but the skull plate on a bear is THICK, Padre. I don't think I'd want to be the one to test that theory in the field.

With the right bullet and charge, a bear skull would be no problem. Seriously, if a 36gr VarminaTOR (which is designed specifically to fragment exploisively on contact) can go through 1/4" steel plate, Im sure a more solid bullet such as the 28gr SS192/195/198 projectile or a 45gr BBS could do the trick.

Now, whether or not you can actually hit the bear skull is an entirely different matter....

The bear's charging you, what do you do? Aim for the head and pray to God you dont miss, aim for the chest, of just squeeze of as many rounds as you possibly can?

I would hope no one ever has to make that choice. If you're traveling in bear country, just bring a larger gun if you've got one. :gavel:

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 28 Aug 2009, 13:00

if he's charging you, that would put his head close to center-mass, wouldn't it? As accurate as my FsN is and with the capacity, I'd be cool going out with 197's.

stg2ahn · Post by **stg2ahn** » 28 Aug 2009, 15:55

A guy on the old forum killed a huge wild boar.. Probably at least a few hundred pounds. He had the picture posted as proof.

Thing was it was a single round aimed at the lungs. The bast*ard ran for awhile before physics kicked it and collapsed.

I believe it can be done with one well placed shot to the head, but if I were in a life or death scenario, I would empty my magazine with as many Center of Mass shots as I can. 20+1= 21.....

St Dark · Post by **St Dark** » 28 Aug 2009, 17:03

Mister Freeze wrote:if he's charging you, that would put his head close to center-mass, wouldn't it? As accurate as my FsN is and with the capacity, I'd be cool going out with 197's.

Kinda what I was thinking a few posts above. Head at pretty much dead center of a big round barrel humping/galloping along at nearly thirty miles an hour.
Now, that thick skull is angled, as well (think tank armour) so better chance of deflection rather than penetration (at least on the first shot, after which things will hopefully have softened up somewhat!), although any muzzle shot will really hurt methinks. Also, with the whole of the bear laid out lengthwise, any bullet that DOES get into him has a LOT of mass to work with and do it's thing to.

I like what fatherfoof has to say about the EA ammo...and I'll admit I have no real experience in this area to speak of just going with an attempt at applied logic on what I know about bears. Fortunately for me we don't have them in central Florida!

For the rest of you, pack the good stuff and remember that gun carries 20 loud, fireball makin' shots ..get off as many as you can in the time allotted!

Post by **Grantness** » 28 Aug 2009, 17:48

St Dark wrote:. Also, with the whole of the bear laid out lengthwise, any bullet that DOES get into him has a LOT of mass to work with and do it's thing to.

If you are shooting an SS195 or UltraRaptor, you're not likely to get much more than 9" of penetration (of course, Im assuming that these projectiles would not go any further in a bear than they would in 15% ballistic gelatin). This is fine for most 2 legged creatures since most of us arnt going to be much thicker than that. If you want more penetration for a bear you're going to need something like a TSX, BBS, FMJ, or even a Protector/VMax/Ballistic TIp (which fully penetrated a 13" block of gelatin).

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 28 Aug 2009, 18:40

Any FMJ shoud work. Even a deflected shot should impart quite a headache...

tireless · Post by **tireless** » 25 Nov 2009, 15:54

Some of my handloaded 45 grain Barnes Banded Solids would likely do the trick.... I wouldn't think of trying it without someone to back me up holding at least a 40 cal.

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 25 Nov 2009, 16:59

I'll back you up with my own FsN!

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 25 Nov 2009, 17:16

Saw the post title and wondered who'd want to shoot Fly? aka KONA :p :lmao:

Post by **Grantness** » 25 Nov 2009, 17:59

tireless wrote:Some of my handloaded 45 grain Barnes Banded Solids would likely do the trick.... I wouldn't think of trying it without someone to back me up holding at least a 40 cal.

The BBS is good for poking deep .224" diameter holes. 45gr TSX or 40gr Ballistic Tip might be better choices.

SeaHawkDriver-B · Post by **SeaHawkDriver-B** » 25 Nov 2009, 18:44

The FiveseveN would not be my choice for any large game, especially dangerous game. Even though adult Blackbears aren't nearly as dangerous as the fearsome North American Grizzly, all bears have a huge mat of hair on their body that is like a bullet proof vests to most small pistol rounds.

I always try and keep in mind that a pistol is by default an underpowered, last ditch weapon. The whole idea behind a pistol, from the days of flintlock pirates to today's modern semi's, was last-line self defense. Although plenty of people use wheel guns, and some semi's to take game, they do so for added sport, BECAUSE ITS HARDER to do so.

Could you kill a blackbear or mountain lion with a FsN? Sure... just hit it in the right spot and the more times the better, the same could be said for a .22 short, 10mm, 44rem mag, anything. The idea behind a bear-defense gun shouldn't hinge on perfect shot placement in order to stop a mauling. Always assume the worst case scenerio: Adult Bear with you between her and her cub. If you want to be an idealist that's for every man to decide for himself; but worst case, you'll have a wild animal several times your weight charging you at speeds twice as fast as you can run. You really think you're going to have good shot placement and multiple rounds in center-of-mass in the 3-4 seconds that that bear is in pistol range? Oh yeahhh.... you're not seriously thinking about unloading when he's out of range. What do you typically shoot at the shooting lane... 25', 40', 50', 100'? That bear is going to be covering something like 10' PER STRIDE and closing awfully fast. She'll be a dynamic moving target, not a piece of paper holding perfectly still at the end of a wire hanger. You'll be pumped full of adrenaline and sweating. If I were a betting man I'd say the average individual probably wouldn't be able to hit much of anything in a scenerio like that, and even if I did get 5-10 rounds off at the bear while she was in range, they probably all wouldn't be direct shots at vitals, plenty would be glancing blows to the top of the shoulders.

Bottom line, any pistol is a relative pea-shooter in the gun world, pick something that at least comes close to the ballistics of a rifle if you're going to go toe-to-toe with a bear.

This is my woods carry gun, decide for yourself.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/products/ ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 25 Nov 2009, 22:22

The lightest handgun caliber I would carry in bear country is a .44 Mag loaded hot with heavy hard cast lead Keith-style bullets in the 250 to 300 grain range.

Post by **panzermk2** » 25 Nov 2009, 22:44

For Bear? screw the Fsn I will empty my Super Blawkhawk loaded with 300 gr +P solids into it as I reach for my Weatherby 378mag rifle.

Post by **blueorison** » 25 Nov 2009, 23:48

panzermk2 wrote:For Bear? screw the Fsn I will empty my Super Blawkhawk loaded with 300 gr +P solids into it as I reach for my Weatherby 378mag rifle.

:lmao: :suicide:

Post by **Grantness** » 26 Nov 2009, 08:15

I agree totally. FsN is not a go to gun for bear. Better off with a shotgun. But if all you have is a FsN against a small black bear, then a TSX or VMax are going to be your best bet.

Haywaj · Post by **Haywaj** » 21 Dec 2009, 18:29

.44 mag in a Desert Eagle for the big boys. 8+1 in the hole. Heavy but worth it in bear country.

Post by **blueorison** » 21 Dec 2009, 23:36

Grantness wrote:I agree totally. FsN is not a go to gun for bear. Better off with a shotgun. But if all you have is a FsN against a small black bear, then a TSX or VMax are going to be your best bet.

shottie w/ slugs, right?

Post by **panzermk2** » 22 Dec 2009, 00:36

Yep slugged shot guns are the new guide gun in Africa these days.

murphies_finest · Post by **murphies_finest** » 03 Mar 2010, 13:15

Cyberfly wrote:HORSE FEATHERS!
FiveseveN works just fine for bears. I just wouldn't try to shoot anything larger than a Koala bear and expect positive results... :thumb:

LMAO Fly you just reminded me of My Dad when you said that "horse feathers"

Post by **Rapier1772** » 03 Mar 2010, 14:19

murphies_finest wrote:
Cyberfly wrote:HORSE FEATHERS!
FiveseveN works just fine for bears. I just wouldn't try to shoot anything larger than a Koala bear and expect positive results... :thumb:
LMAO Fly you just reminded me of My Dad when you said that "horse feathers"

He "just" reminded you? That was a year ago :skep: Zombie thread! :p :p

murphies_finest · Post by **murphies_finest** » 03 Mar 2010, 14:28

I wast just trying to keep it alive after all "Troll Status Active" lmao

AN_OLD_LADY · Post by **AN_OLD_LADY** » 03 Mar 2010, 16:32

Dang, I was hoping somebody revived this to say how well the FsN worked on a black bear... Then again, I suppose if someone had to defend themselves against a black bear with an FsN, they wouldn't be able to post about it... Unless they are very lucky.

stg2ahn · Post by **stg2ahn** » 03 Mar 2010, 18:32

AN_OLD_LADY wrote:Dang, I was hoping somebody revived this to say how well the FsN worked on a black bear... Then again, I suppose if someone had to defend themselves against a black bear with an FsN, they wouldn't be able to post about it... Unless they are very lucky.

Remember black bear are smaller than other bears such as brown bears.

Also the Xterminator rounds from elite use barnes tsx rounds, which have excellent weight retention after impact, and great expansion as well. I wouldn't feel underpowered at all, unless I had the factory bluetips....

Post by **panzermk2** » 03 Mar 2010, 18:50

stg2ahn wrote:
AN_OLD_LADY wrote:Dang, I was hoping somebody revived this to say how well the FsN worked on a black bear... Then again, I suppose if someone had to defend themselves against a black bear with an FsN, they wouldn't be able to post about it... Unless they are very lucky.
Remember black bear are smaller than other bears such as brown bears.

Also the Xterminator rounds from elite use barnes tsx rounds, which have excellent weight retention after impact, and great expansion as well. I wouldn't feel underpowered at all, unless I had the factory bluetips....

From the guy who makes the stuff, ME

panzermk2 wrote:For Bear? screw the Fsn I will empty my Super Blawkhawk loaded with 300 gr +P solids into it as I reach for my Weatherby 378mag rifle.

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 03 Mar 2010, 20:59

An old thread, but there aren't many pistols (or guns for that matter) that I would plan on stopping a charging bear. The few seconds it takes for the bear to make its way to you would prove too few to use a shotgun/rifle for most folks. The head on a bear is incredibly tough ... shot placement ... so many pistols wouldn't matter (okay, .454 casull maybe, but why chance it? Read on), including the 5.7.

I have encountered a black bear and came out of it with nothing more than a severe adrenalin rush. UDAP Bear Deterrent is what I used and the bear stopped approximately 15 feet away, looked confused (best description I got for the look on the bear's face), and turned tail.

I carry UDAP with me all the time in the woods and walking about the neighborhood (we have schmucks who let their dugs run wild outside of their domain, including aggressive breeds - and yes, UDAP sends Rots and Bulls the other way). Some statistics don't lie. The reports of folks who are injured attempting to / successfully discharging a firearm at a bear versus those who use UDAP (or equivalent brand) are very real.

hammerhands32 · Post by **hammerhands32** » 03 Mar 2010, 22:34

here in califonia we use magic wands and pixie dust. So long as it's not kept in a high capacity pouch

Vafrum · Post by **Vafrum** » 29 Mar 2010, 20:44

Just for a point of reference, when I was 10 years of age, my dad took me cougar hunting in Colorado. I took home a 145lbs cat with a .22 magnum.
That was before the 5.7 was invented. Or I might have taken it... HAHA

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 29 Mar 2010, 21:04

It is due time the racial slurs stop. An albino bear of identical proportion should be included.

Ariac · Post by **Ariac** » 30 Mar 2010, 10:50

VITALIY · Post by **VITALIY** » 30 Mar 2010, 12:37

Still, Chuck is no match to Bruce LEE :p Bruce would have killed that bear with dragon's tail kick :p

Vafrum · Post by **Vafrum** » 31 Mar 2010, 20:04

Wow that Chuck vs. Bear video was so powerful.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 26 Apr 2010, 04:04

Hmmm...shooting bears with my sidearm?

I have a couple boxes of Double Tap 147gr+P FMJ flat nose for my HK P7 9mm. Penetration in gel is 40" plus.

I carry that stuff when i'm hiking around on my uncle's property in the mountains of upstate Pennsylvania. All we have there is black bears.

HARDLY ideal, but a 9mm is what i got in the handgun department(mostly i'm a city dweller), and i suspect that particular loading is by far the best round (meaning barely adequate at all) in 9mm for shooting at big, angry animals.

If i ever run into a Black bear up there that for some reason insists on me shooting it with my pistol on a nature walk(very unlikely), i plan to take head shots. Lots of them. And pray. Honestly, one head shot with that round should kill pretty much anything in Pennsylvania. Just need to actually score the head shot. Hence the praying...

Against a brown bear, from what i've read, no way in hell i'd mess around with anything less than a .44 Magnum with big, heavy solids. Why even risk it? Seriously, if i was in brown bear country, if at all possible, i would bring a light weight semi auto 18" shotgun loaded with slugs.

Cougars on the other hand are supposedly quite fragile. We also have those here. I've never ran across one, but i would feel perfectly safe using any gun considered suitable for self defense against people, including a 5.7, my 9mm with any decent self defense ammo, or even a .380 loaded with premium modern ammunition. (Corbon DPX in particular has shown devastating results in gel tests and utilizes a well proven solid copper hollowpoint hunting bullet). Even a .38 spl snubby with good modern 158gr+P JHP ammunition should do the trick on a cougar at short range. I'm not recommending one...but it should work in a pinch.

Of course shot placement is always king. An eye shot with almost anything will kill, well, almost anything...

Post by **blueorison** » 26 Apr 2010, 06:16

Valorius wrote:Hmmm...shooting bears with my sidearm?

I have a couple boxes of Double Tap 147gr+P FMJ flat nose for my HK P7 9mm. Penetration in gel is 40" plus.

uhhh whoa!

AKStevoUSN · Post by **AKStevoUSN** » 26 Apr 2010, 07:58

Have to say, living in AK all my life, I have never heard of bullets ricocheting off a bear's head in a self defense situation and leading to the shooter's death.
The standard carry is a .454, 44mag or .500 for real backup, but i feel fine taking my FsN out where grizz encounters would be less probable. Black bears are like big dogs compared to a Brown/Grizz/Kodiak. Not that they are not dangerous, but the 5.7, along with most other pistol rounds should be fine.

Post by **panzermk2** » 26 Apr 2010, 08:17

Your P7 has to only be effective on the guy standing next to you.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 26 Apr 2010, 13:00

blueorison wrote:
Valorius wrote:Hmmm...shooting bears with my sidearm?

I have a couple boxes of Double Tap 147gr+P FMJ flat nose for my HK P7 9mm. Penetration in gel is 40" plus.

uhhh whoa!

Yep, that' what i said when i saw it's penetration performance too....whoa!!!
That round won't leave a particularly big hole, but it will leave a very deep one. Doubletap markets the round exclusively for Trail defense.

Link for Doubletap 147gr+P FMJ-FP trail defense:

Caliber : 9mm+P
Bullet : Montana Gold Full Metal Jacket Flat Point
Ballistics : 147gr @ 1135fps / 421ft. lbs. from a G17.
Glock 19 velocity - 1120fps.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalo ... cts_id=385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By no means ideal, but if all you have is a 9mm, it is as good as you're going to find in that caliber IMO.

panzermk2 wrote:Your P7 has to only be effective on the guy standing next to you.

Joe: "Bill....dag...look...a brown bear is coming right for us!"
Bill: "Joe, get ready to run."
Joe: "Bro what for, you can't outrun a bear."
Bill: "I don't have to outrun the bear. Just you..."

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 26 Apr 2010, 14:04

UDAP (and probably others) just plain works. So if we know that it works, and we know that most folks who attempt to discharge their firearm at a bear end up with injuries, why even think about it or debate? Why not just take UDAP with ya into the wilderness? You don't have to worry about caliber, loading, reloading, shot placement, or shooting a person. Simply aim the cannister and let loose

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 27 Apr 2010, 08:42

Pepper spray doesn't always work, even on people. Probably be a good idea to carry both.

Post by **Grantness** » 27 Apr 2010, 11:00

Lets say you have a smallish black bear (less than 300 lbs) and its 40-50 yards away and begins to charge you. After shooting my .357 Ruger Security Six and my FsN at 50 yard targets a couple weeks ago....I realized it would be very hard for me to hit the bear with 6 shots from the .357 yet I would have little trouble hitting the bear with 20 (or 30) rounds out of the FsN before it gets to me. The .357 took time to aim, and even then it wasnt very accurate compared to the FsN. It took a long time to get back on target after each shot w/ the .357 as well.

I dont know about you, but in that situation I would rather have 20-30 5.7x28 rounds (Trident, TSX, or Vmax reloads of course) on target than 4 or 5 shots at best from my .357. I know bears have thick skulls, but with the new Trident bullets, a BBS, or a TSX, Im sure you could penetrate it.

However, I will reiterate. A FsN should not be your primary weapon if you think you are going to encounter a Black Bear. Its not really appropriate. If you get surprised by a bear at close range, you're better off with a powerful gun that can put it down with one or two shots.

Post by **f3rr37** » 27 Apr 2010, 11:29

A black bear can run 25-30mph, which is ~37-44ft/sec. If it charges from 50yards, you've got 3.4-4.0sec to dump as much lead into it as fast as you can. Never really looked at the numbers before, but they're pretty quick!

Post by **blueorison** » 27 Apr 2010, 12:21

Valorius wrote:Pepper spray doesn't always work, even on people. Probably be a good idea to carry both.

Great point. I agree completely. I think pepper spray is to people situations like slapping an attacker open handed. I personally think it's a joke. Unless you get high up there with the burning pepper sprays... now we're talkin.

However, Bears aren't people. Their sense of smell is painfully acute.

I would, obviously, do the prudent thing and carry both. However, if the bear IS charging 30 yds away, don't you think I'd shoot first if it were charging me?

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Apr 2010, 12:42

I have never found it posted on you tube. About 1975 from a copter ( Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom) they filmed a bear chasing down a deer along a mountain side in and out of the upper tree line. Over giant boulders and fallen trees. Bear won.

Black Bear

Post by **Grantness** » 27 Apr 2010, 12:49

f3rr37 wrote:A black bear can run 25-30mph, which is ~37-44ft/sec. If it charges from 50yards, you've got 3.4-4.0sec to dump as much lead into it as fast as you can. Never really looked at the numbers before, but they're pretty quick!

yea, it sounds to me like you would be extremely lucky to get 3 accurate shots off with a large caliber revolver if its charging at those speeds (from 40-50 yards). With my Security Six, I have to cock it after every shot b/c using the double action throws off the aim A LOT.

Hypothetically speaking, I think you could put more total kinetic energy on target w/ a FsN (in that particular scenario) than a .357mag. Then again, a good semi-auto 10mm could prob put even more energy on target...

Post by **f3rr37** » 27 Apr 2010, 12:52

WTF, that deer didn't even move, it just laid down and said eat me.

Post by **blueorison** » 27 Apr 2010, 12:54

Uhh why didn't those idiots tell the landowner his property was getting killed instead of watching and laughing.

Sigh.

Grant; if it were a black bear, vs the mass; I would go for penetration of matter vs damage done. My reasoning is that the big mass won't bother to check what holes and how big they are when it's charging you; you really have to stop it using shot placement. :furious:

Fuzzy: looked like a newborn. Still hadn't gotten its legs yet.

Hobknob · Post by **Hobknob** » 27 Apr 2010, 12:59

How bout just carrying an M32 MGL with some good ammo?
A little conspicuous, but it'd probably get the job done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_MGL

Post by **f3rr37** » 27 Apr 2010, 13:20

blueorison wrote: Fuzzy: looked like a newborn. Still hadn't gotten its legs yet.

Good eye, I wasn't paying much attention :P

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Apr 2010, 18:24

It was also having trouble with the very deep snow.

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