Concealed Carry: round in the chamber, or not?

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 25 Apr 2012, 08:34

Wait, he wasn't high on cookies in all those running & gunning vids?!?!?

We're all doomed...

Post by **Rapier1772** » 25 Apr 2012, 09:11

jgreenberg01 wrote:Wait, he wasn't high on cookies in all those running & gunning vids?!?!?
We're all doomed...

Just had a thought (mainly cuz blue hates this topic) when zombie day hits, ensure you have a supply of white chocolate & macadamia nut cookies. Before the phone lines go dead, let him know that you have some for him & all he has to do is get there.
When he does get there, let him have the cookies & turn him loose :laugh: zombies wouldn't stand a chance :lmao:

But we're getting way off topic with that & I realized I didn't post my opinion in this thread (although it is posted in the linked threads).
SA - cocked, & locked
DA - chambered, & usually hammer down.

I recommend chambered when carrying for all those previously listed reasons but I don't fault people for deciding against it. Personal choice, go with what you are comfortable with.
Even if it is the wrong choice :p

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 25 Apr 2012, 09:19

Oops, I didn't stay on topic either. I carry cocked & locked with 21 rounds of S4M love for the BGs.

And I carry double stuff oreos as well.

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 25 Apr 2012, 11:55

In that video, even with a round chambered she is likely DEAD! his second knife thrust hit her under her armpit and looked like close to the artery. Without medical treatment QUICKLY she could bleed out. Just goes to show you never let someone that close to you.

CenCalSplicer · Post by **CenCalSplicer** » 25 Apr 2012, 15:42

I carry my G30 chambered and ready to go and like the idea of training to move when a threat is assessed to increase their distance and slow them down by having to react to their target. Practicing that is the only way to prevent an attack similar to what that woman faced in that video. Rocks and cookiez are another great idea :p

Ubetit · Post by **Ubetit** » 26 Apr 2012, 04:15

Always chambered. I can't 100% reliably draw from concealment anyway as sometimes I fumble with my shirt. I don't want to add yet another step.

Raveren · Post by **Raveren** » 26 Apr 2012, 06:50

Yes, there are certainly some very good arguments being made that support the option of a round in the chamber, but also consider this:

It is nearly unanimous among concealed CCW individuals that the last thing they want to do is shoot someone. So in a life or death situation, an individual must still do all they can to avoid discharging their firearm. That being said, it would be valid to say that just merely drawing any firearm (cocked or not cocked) would have an immediate psychological effect on the offender. Note that the weapon focus effect is a well-documented psychological phenomenon. The mere presence of a weapon is enough to end conflicts in some cases, not all of course.

Zhurdan · Post by **Zhurdan** » 26 Apr 2012, 07:22

Raveren wrote:Yes, there are certainly some very good arguments being made that support the option of a round in the chamber, but also consider this:

It is nearly unanimous among concealed CCW individuals that the last thing they want to do is shoot someone. So in a life or death situation, an individual must still do all they can to avoid discharging their firearm. That being said, it would be valid to say that just merely drawing any firearm (cocked or not cocked) would have an immediate psychological effect on the offender. Note that the weapon focus effect is a well-documented psychological phenomenon. The mere presence of a weapon is enough to end conflicts in some cases, not all of course.

Coming from a person (me) who's had to draw their weapon and NOT shoot, I wouldn't bet on the gun stopping a fight simply by it being present. EVER! You are gambling with your life, potentially, and if you're that lucky all the time, you might not even need to carry a gun. ;-)

My situation escalated rather slowly... and by slowly, I mean over about 20 seconds. He'd expressed his willingness to "kill me" from distance, had the means necessary to do so (tire iron) and was eye locked with me as he approached. I drew my gun to low ready as he made his approach and he didn't even see it. He was so focused on my eyes and his own rage that he simply didn't see it. Once the gun was brought up to eye level and the safety flicked off, I was already applying pressure to the trigger when he finally saw it. Things changed rapidly for him. He dropped the tire iron and became VERY compliant.

Had I needed to rack a round at that point, it'd have been lights out for me. I'm not willing to count on a crazy, rage filled person to "notice" the gun. I had every intent (and legal precedent) to drop his ass with a bang and a flash, but the situation changed and so did my decision. Self defense situations are fluid and change over time, but I most definitely want time on my side... not theirs.

You're mileage may vary, but when we have to deal in fractions of a second, I'm not willing to give the bad guy any time advantage.

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 26 Apr 2012, 07:58

He's lucky you had the timing to wait. I can say for sure that if a perp is within 10-15 FT (feet not yards) and is advancing with a weapon, I'm shooting.
Gotta do what makes you comfortable OP but I wish you all the best and hope for those
extra seconds you may need if SHTF

Post by **Cyberfly** » 26 Apr 2012, 08:11

Post by **Rapier1772** » 26 Apr 2012, 08:58

Raveren wrote:Yes, there are certainly some very good arguments being made that support the option of a round in the chamber, but also consider this:

It is nearly unanimous among concealed CCW individuals that the last thing they want to do is shoot someone. So in a life or death situation, an individual must still do all they can to avoid discharging their firearm. That being said, it would be valid to say that just merely drawing any firearm (cocked or not cocked) would have an immediate psychological effect on the offender. Note that the weapon focus effect is a well-documented psychological phenomenon. The mere presence of a weapon is enough to end conflicts in some cases, not all of course.

The whole reason we're carrying is "what if...?" So consider this, what if it doesn't?

Are you willing to bet your life and/or that of your loved ones that you can rack the slide in an adrenaline filled situation?

I've been in a couple of adrenaline filled situations in my time (car accidents, attacks, sharks, etc...) & I can tell you this, usually I have only one thought in the time it takes for that to happen. My attention is focused on dealing with what is coming at me immediately & not on manipulating something so that I can maybe deal with it if it doesn't go away.

Now, if you train that way all the time <very important step>, then you might have a chance, IF you have the extra second.

PS, there is also documented proof that actually firing a gun doesn't always end a conflict.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 26 Apr 2012, 11:03

Do what you want. But I personally think carrying a gun without a round chambered is reckless.

The Keymaster · Post by **The Keymaster** » 26 Apr 2012, 13:13

Here is another drill. In a controlled environment (range), using snap cap ammo, with someone timing you draw and fire your weapon with a dummy round chambered. Do this 10 times. Then perform the same drill without a round chambered, having to rack the slide. Firstly, you will be amazed at how long it takes to rack the slide. It interferes with the entire process of drawing the weapon and bringing it to a ready position. Secondly, it brings the weak hand into play. Where the weak hand should be totally out of the picture until it is brought onto the pistol in the straight out motion to the ready position, the tendency when racking the slide is to bring that hand up and out the same time the draw takes place inviting a really dangerous situation. Also keep in mind, that you cannot shoot from a lower position on your body when having to rack the slide. In the drill I mentioned earlier, we shot as soon as the weapon cleared the holster and was pointed at the target. You cannot rack the slide and perform that maneuver. Ir was a part of the training because it could save your life. I have been taught in every class I have attended that a firearm without a round in the chamber is not a firearm.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 26 Apr 2012, 15:07

The Keymaster wrote:I have been taught in every class I have attended that a firearm without a round in the chamber is not a firearm.

Ask a cop -> loaded mag (w/gun or gun nearby) = loaded gun, chambered or not.

The Keymaster · Post by **The Keymaster** » 26 Apr 2012, 17:28

I was talking about the practical aspect, not the legal aspect.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 26 Apr 2012, 19:13

Rapier1772 wrote:
The Keymaster wrote:I have been taught in every class I have attended that a firearm without a round in the chamber is not a firearm.
Ask a cop -> loaded mag (w/gun or gun nearby) = loaded gun, chambered or not.

I just looked it up. IF you have a valid CCL or reciprocal CCL, there is not a single law that precludes you from carrying a loaded, chambered weapon.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 26 Apr 2012, 20:14

flyingirish04 wrote:I just looked it up. IF you have a valid CCL or reciprocal CCL, there is not a single law that precludes you from carrying a loaded, chambered weapon.

I realize that, but what I am saying is response to this post:

The Keymaster wrote:I have been taught in every class I have attended that a firearm without a round in the chamber is not a firearm.

All I meant was just because there isn't a round in the chamber, that does not preclude it from being a firearm.

Personally Key, I agree that a practical CCW should be chambered. But far be it from me to denounce anyone else's educated opinion about it. All we can do is provide the facts & hope other people learn.

Also, ask any idiot who was "sure" the gun wasn't loaded & it "just went off" - it's still a firearm :laugh:

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Apr 2012, 00:08

This thread has made me laugh. Since I am in IL the only without CCW I can only carry a gun unloaded and cased. Now the case can be a fanny pack but the gun still can't be loaded. So yes I carry without one in the chamber.

Although to throw some gas on the fire.

The Israeli's carry practice is with the chamber empty and they don't seem to have any issues shooting vest bombers in the head before they can set off the bomb or shooting crazed Palestinians rampaging in giant earth movers.

apvbguy · Post by **apvbguy** » 27 Apr 2012, 03:21

1. if you train as much as the isreali military does, go ahead carry like they do
2. if you think that a BG will allow you to call a time out so you can rack your weapon, you deserve to die.
3. in a gun fight he who puts lead on the other guy first usually wins.
4. you can do as you please but to advocate not carrying with a round in the chamber is IMHO foolish, all you are carrying in that condition is a heavy paperweight

Post by **Cyberfly** » 27 Apr 2012, 09:10

Uhh, panzer, I think comparing U.S. CCW to Israeli citizens is a bit different. Doesn't EVERYBODY in Israel carry concealed? Teachers, mailmen, rabbis,...everybody? So...regardless of whether there is a round in the chamber or not, SOMEBODY is gonna take that bomber out.

brianz · Post by **brianz** » 27 Apr 2012, 09:21

I answered as best I could, as I carry a Glock 23 with a round in the chamber, and contrary to a recent episode of The Closer, there is no hammer to cock.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 27 Apr 2012, 09:30

Rapier1772 wrote:
flyingirish04 wrote:I just looked it up. IF you have a valid CCL or reciprocal CCL, there is not a single law that precludes you from carrying a loaded, chambered weapon.
I realize that, but what I am saying is response to this post:
The Keymaster wrote:I have been taught in every class I have attended that a firearm without a round in the chamber is not a firearm.
All I meant was just because there isn't a round in the chamber, that does not preclude it from being a firearm.

Personally Key, I agree that a practical CCW should be chambered. But far be it from me to denounce anyone else's educated opinion about it. All we can do is provide the facts & hope other people learn.

Also, ask any idiot who was "sure" the gun wasn't loaded & it "just went off" - it's still a firearm :laugh:

I get ya. Sorry.

As far as it 'just went off', it is almost always a negligent pull of the trigger. I say almost, because I had an experience of a faulty firing spring pin leaving the pin out, and when the slide went forward to chamber a round, it fired the weapon. That being said, no one was injured because I alway have a weapon pointed down range and in a safe direction when letting the slide forward or chambering a round.

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Apr 2012, 13:36

Cyberfly wrote:Uhh, panzer, I think comparing U.S. CCW to Israeli citizens is a bit different. Doesn't EVERYBODY in Israel carry concealed? Teachers, mailmen, rabbis,...everybody? So...regardless of whether there is a round in the chamber or not, SOMEBODY is gonna take that bomber out.

No they open carry more then they CCW.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 27 Apr 2012, 14:31

Where are the mags?

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 27 Apr 2012, 14:38

Use your imagination. New definition of 'buried cache'....:p

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Apr 2012, 14:38

Rapier1772 wrote:Where are the mags?

Carried up front. Usually stuffed in a pocket. Regular IDF serving their mandatory time don't get all sorts of fancy gear.

Funny they can kick all sorts of ass without 2 grand in Voo Doo tactical hanging off them. Don't they know they can't do that without the mandatory gear?

Post by **Rapier1772** » 27 Apr 2012, 15:27

flyingirish04 wrote:Use your imagination. New definition of 'buried cache'....:p

Like the cell phone in "Machete"? nah, Israelis have more class than that.

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 27 Apr 2012, 15:32

Really whomever said "ask a police officer if they carry chambered or not" put it in perspective. Are there any departments that carry without a round chambered on the ready?

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 27 Apr 2012, 17:38

Going after "a bomber or terrorist" is different than having someone within 10-15 from you. I would hazard a guess that plenty of innocent "armed" israelis have been killed before they could lock and load..Just because they carry like that doens't mean someone had seen something and been unable to react it time.

Lobo · Post by **Lobo** » 27 Apr 2012, 18:28

panzermk2 wrote:
Cyberfly wrote:Uhh, panzer, I think comparing U.S. CCW to Israeli citizens is a bit different. Doesn't EVERYBODY in Israel carry concealed? Teachers, mailmen, rabbis,...everybody? So...regardless of whether there is a round in the chamber or not, SOMEBODY is gonna take that bomber out.

No they open carry more then they CCW.

oh yes, now picture that on a topless beach at Eilat, Israel :drool:
(oh I thank the guy who invented mirror sunglasses

)

(the funny part was me asking how they don't get a tan line from the strap)

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Apr 2012, 23:39

Lobo wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:
Cyberfly wrote:Uhh, panzer, I think comparing U.S. CCW to Israeli citizens is a bit different. Doesn't EVERYBODY in Israel carry concealed? Teachers, mailmen, rabbis,...everybody? So...regardless of whether there is a round in the chamber or not, SOMEBODY is gonna take that bomber out.

No they open carry more then they CCW.

oh yes, now picture that on a topless beach at Eilat, Israel :drool:
(oh I thank the guy who invented mirror sunglasses )

(the funny part was me asking how they don't get a tan line from the strap)

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Don't have to been there done that, the mirror sun glass part.

This is from the Hotel Daniel just north of the marina.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 28 Apr 2012, 05:15

You need a bigger zoom :laugh:

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 28 Apr 2012, 06:16

Rapier1772 wrote:You need a bigger zoom :laugh:

:agree:

Size does matter... camera lens size, of course.

Agent · Post by **Agent** » 30 Apr 2012, 17:53

Carrying a gun is preparing for a once in a lifetime event, and people who carry without a round in the chamber are giving the bad guy an advantage. In a deadly force situation, I'll be using my left arm to defend myself and not to rack my gun. Trying to find something to catch your slide on to chamber a round while you're fighting with an armed subject? Ridiculous.

eagleshotz · Post by **eagleshotz** » 10 May 2012, 20:41

:ttiwwp: :agree:

Post by **Rapier1772** » 10 Sep 2015, 11:28

http://bearingarms.com/empty-chamber-ca ... n=baupdate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The link is an article about empty chamber carry, its origins & use even today; mostly about why it's a bad idea.
Saw this gem about the US & Israeli military carrying with an empty chamber:

Israeli military leaders want their troop carrying handguns with an empty chamber for the same reason American commanders do: derp is a universal problem.

:laugh: (BTW, author was speaking about the people who have not had special training)

There's also "virtual shooting simulator" video on the page.

If this happened at my house, I'd have my hand on my gun. But in a public area like a parking lot, I don't know that I would have done that - until now.

Either way, the point for carrying chambered is made several times.

WhiteFether · Post by **WhiteFether** » 14 Sep 2015, 16:23

Cocked and ready to rock ..........

Rrainman · Post by **Rrainman** » 01 Jan 2016, 06:13

I've always carried with one in the chamber. I agree with that I would not want to take the time to chamber a round in an emergency situation. And with a semi, I like the idea of an additional round of ammo. And personally, I could not imagine giving up a chamber on a revolver simple to not be resting on a live round. Of course, with all that said, it is important to have very good discipline and training to mitigate the risks of one in the pipe. As far as a mechanical failure of the safeties are concerned, with as much liability and lawyers involved at the manufacturers, I bet any such failures are ultra-rare.

When conceal carrying, do you prefer:

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