Crimping the 5.7x28mm

VITALIY · Post by **VITALIY** » 01 Sep 2008, 17:18

Grantness wrote:do u have the specs for that bushing?

The bushing that i use is 0.130" tall , made of .22 cal rod bruss guide.
The reason i prefere my way of crimping vs roll crimp is that it makes possible mutch wider range of adjustment in depth as well as in thickness of crimp.

Post by **Grantness** » 01 Sep 2008, 18:52

I agree...your was IS better. Can I buy a .223 Lee Factory Crimp Die to modify like you did (or did i need to get a specific brand)?

I just thought I would use the roll crimp on my TSX bullets since they seem to be the only bullets I own that I can roll crimp with my regular seating dies.

VITALIY · Post by **VITALIY** » 01 Sep 2008, 19:37

Grantness wrote:I agree...your was IS better. Can I buy a .223 Lee Factory Crimp Die to modify like you did (or did i need to get a specific brand)?

I just thought I would use the roll crimp on my TSX bullets since they seem to be the only bullets I own that I can roll crimp with my regular seating dies.

LEE factory crimp die will work. I'm not saing that roll crimp is compleatly usless, it's just less user frendly, with limited range of adjustment. Honestly i'd rather see you experiment with both, and see what you like better.

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Sep 2008, 02:30

The problem with the LEE crimping die is you have a 1in4 chance of getting one that has not had the collet cuts to deep. If they are to deep you cannot remove enough of the die base to properly push the 57 fare enough up into the collet

This is why we created out own CAD file for our own crimp die.

Post by **Grantness** » 02 Sep 2008, 07:37

i would be interested in purchasing a custom 5.7 crimp die if you still have any (even if they are $70).

If not Lee.... can u reccomend a better crimp die?

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Sep 2008, 08:46

There is no better. Currently we are waiting on a big order of shell plates, trim plates and crimp dies. Yes the crimp dies will be 70 bucks. That is our cost.

tdevince · Post by **tdevince** » 03 Sep 2008, 13:27

Sounds good to me, I'm in for a crimp die at $70.00 when you get them!

karbuv · Post by **karbuv** » 09 Sep 2008, 13:13

The crimp die is worth waiting on. IMHO, to get the most out of the 57, crimping is necessary. If you want to try making your own crimping die, start with a 218 BEE LEE crimp die and remove about 1/10 inch from the bottom of the inside part with the collet cuts. After removing 1/10 inch, try crimping with it and remove more as needed to obtain the crimp you want, perhaps around .115 -.125 if memory serves me. The collet cuts don't seem to be uniform on a die and from die to die, so good luck on getting a short collet cut die.
Kinda makes $70 a good price. :patriot:

Hoover 1 · Post by **Hoover 1** » 30 Nov 2008, 20:31

Since I had a couple of my reloaded bullet set back in the case recently, I am looking into applying a crimp to my reloads.

Couple of questions for the experts.

If I understand how a crimp die works, it seems like either a .223, 22 hornet, .218 Bee or any .224 bullet round crimp die could be the starting point. Just remove sufficient material from the bottom of the die so the 5.7x28 round can interface with the crimp area on the die. The shorter the die to begin with, the less material you will need to remove. And it seems like you can not remove too much material (unless you remove the collet region during machining

)

Panzer - Why is there a 1in4 chance of purchasing a Lee factory crimp die that has not had the collet cuts too deep? Are the tolerances that bad?
Vitaliy - What is the reason for the spacer with the .223 crimp die? Ease of setting up the die?

Thanks in advance,

Hoover

Vortec MAX · Post by **Vortec MAX** » 30 Nov 2008, 22:47

I'd buy a crimp die from ya. Count me in.

P.S. If you need CAD files of any of your designs, I work for ammo.

I teach AutoCAD and SolidWorks at the university here.

Mike

VITALIY · Post by **VITALIY** » 01 Dec 2008, 08:16

[quote="
Vitaliy - What is the reason for the spacer with the .223 crimp die? Ease of setting up the die?

Thanks in advance,

Hoover[/quote]
As you can see, when you use .223 die for 5.7, you don't insert the round in to the shellholder, but, drop it down into the die, from the top, than rase the shell holder just to actuate the crimp. The spacer is needed to controll the width (thikness) of the crimped area, and without it, you'd have no consistency.

Post by **panzermk2** » 01 Dec 2008, 09:26

Hoover 1 wrote: Panzer - Why is there a 1in4 chance of purchasing a Lee factory crimp die that has not had the collet cuts too deep? Are the tolerances that bad?
Vitaliy - What is the reason for the spacer with the .223 crimp die? Ease of setting up the die?

Thanks in advance,

Hoover

Yes it looks like LEE cuts the collets on a band saw. The depth of the cuts vary up to 1/8 of an inch and are all sorts of different angles.

Hoover 1 · Post by **Hoover 1** » 01 Dec 2008, 19:27

Vitaliy/Panzer,

Many thanks for the information.

[/quote]Yes it looks like LEE cuts the collets on a band saw. The depth of the cuts vary up to 1/8 of an inch and are all sorts of different angles.[/quote]

Great, now I may have to make one of my own.

Thanks Guys,

Hoover

CBinNH · Post by **CBinNH** » 02 Dec 2008, 00:41

If you choose to make one:
http://www.57forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hoover 1 · Post by **Hoover 1** » 02 Dec 2008, 02:51

CB,

Thanks, I think I will give it a try.

Thanks,

Hoover

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Dec 2008, 19:43

We are still going to try to bring out a crimp die. It's on the back burner now since we are so busy. Our biggest issue is getting the cost down.

apache · Post by **apache** » 12 Jun 2009, 08:42

I decided to make a FCD. Below is how it went:

Started with a LEE 22 Hornet FCD
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=523023
Note that the midway stock photo shows a long unthreaded range under the knurl...
however, the one I received had threads all the up to the knurl (good thing, allows the room to keep a lock nut)
Keep in mind as well that other have reported QA issues with how deep the slots are cut into the insert and some have not been able to shorten them without ruining the insert... (I got Lucky)

Also to remove the insert I used MO's method of putting a deep socket on the insert(slid into the die sleeve from the top) and knocking it out with a hammer. (MO's sites a 10mm, but my 10mm was too thick to sit inside the sleeve and reach the top of the insert. I used a smaller one that fit)

Next, had to determine how much to shorten the insert and outer die sleeve. (I used a dremel cutting wheel to cut both die sleeve and insert I cut the insert to 1.023" and the sleeve to 1.90")
My thinking was that the casing needed to be near the top of the insert for maximum crimp WRONG)
see pic. (length of top of case to bevel is 1.02" and another thread here noted 1.02, so I thought that was safe...WRONG)
I had already cut my insert to a length 1.023" before finding out that is too short

In reality the case mouth needs to be a good bit lower than the top of the insert.
I used a washer to make up this difference (since I already cut my insert too short)
If I did this again, I would cut my insert to 1.10" The Sleeve I cut to 1.90"
see pic

To show how the depth of the case in the insert affects the crimp I crimped one round with the washer and one without it
see pic (right hand round is with out the washer and IMHO an incorrect crimp)

I have been very satisfied with the crimp this is making on my reloads.. I just have an extra step of dropping the washer over the round before i raise it into the crimp die
(may try to glue it to the bottom of the insert one of these days)

Vortec MAX · Post by **Vortec MAX** » 12 Jun 2009, 09:46

I still want a crimp die. Are you still planning on making some Panzermk2?

Mike

romer522 · Post by **romer522** » 12 Jun 2009, 09:59

:monkey: :monkey:

Maerlyn13 · Post by **Maerlyn13** » 12 Jun 2009, 12:40

I ordered the 218 Bee Lee FCD from Grafs online and used my lathe to cut it down. Works like a charm. I guess I got lucky with mine as I still had enough metal before the band saw cuts.

Post by **Grantness** » 12 Jun 2009, 17:42

What lengths did you cut it to?

Maerlyn13 · Post by **Maerlyn13** » 12 Jun 2009, 20:28

The die body/sleeve was cut to 1.952 and the insert/collet was cut to 1.035.

apache · Post by **apache** » 12 Jun 2009, 20:36

Maerlyn13 wrote:The die body/sleeve was cut to 1.952 and the insert/collet was cut to 1.035.

Post a pic of one of your rounds crimped with your die.

Llagoud · Post by **Llagoud** » 12 Jun 2009, 21:12

Please.
And thank you for your anitcipated cooperation.

Maerlyn13 · Post by **Maerlyn13** » 12 Jun 2009, 23:13

Sorry, typo on the insert/collet. It was cut to 1.095.

[/URL[URL=http://img188.imageshack.us/i/1000946q.jpg/]

Post by **Grantness** » 13 Jun 2009, 07:41

Looks nice :thumb: Did the FCD cause that ring around the shoulder?

I just ordered two Hornet FCD's and one Bee FCD. Gonna keep my fingers crossed that I'll get a good one. Its nice to see and hear the results everyone is getting w/ different OALs....so that I can pick out what works best

Maerlyn13 · Post by **Maerlyn13** » 13 Jun 2009, 09:15

Actually, No. My Lee reloading dies did it. Its actually way more noticeable in the picture than when you're looking directly at it.. After looking at all my sized brass, all the shoulders seem to have it.

apache · Post by **apache** » 14 Jun 2009, 17:56

Thanks Maerlyn13, I was thinking your collet insert may have been to short, but your updated number looks correct to me. Good Job and good pics.

Llagoud · Post by **Llagoud** » 23 Jul 2009, 11:44

I made 4 extra's, and I think I'll put them up for sale. Two were made with Lee blank die bodies, and two with Hornady blank die bodies.

I'd like to buy one and take it for a spin.

Vortec MAX · Post by **Vortec MAX** » 23 Jul 2009, 14:25

How much? I am very interested.

Mike

njogi · Post by **njogi** » 23 Jul 2009, 14:53

On the side note:

I used 218 Bee Lee FCD that I had ordered with Lee 5.7 dies. Used a Band Saw to cut the die body/sleeve to 1.952 and the insert/collet to 1.095 per Maerlyn13. Got to above measurements...Very close after the polishing...

The Insert/Collet has now a little play ...Loose ..in the Sleeve...Is that OK?

I created some dummy rounds with 55 FMJ and a 36g Grenade...But the Bullets sit pretty tight ..so I can not really tell if it is working like it should...

Should the play matter..When I pull on the press rod and observe from the top, it does move to crimp and seem to function...

Should I measure a sized case neck and try to crimp it and re-measure ...and see if it changed the next measurement ?

Thanks.

Llagoud · Post by **Llagoud** » 23 Jul 2009, 15:39

I've learned to not very much like cheap.

Still interested.

Post by **Grantness** » 23 Jul 2009, 17:04

njogi wrote:I used 218 Bee Lee FCD that I had ordered with Lee 5.7 dies. Used a Band Saw to cut the die body/sleeve to 1.952 and the insert/collet to 1.095 per Maerlyn13. Got to above measurements...Very close after the polishing...

The Insert/Collet has now a little play ...Loose ..in the Sleeve...Is that OK?

I tried to tell you that was gonna be too short for the body. Its best to cut the insert first so you can judge how deep to cut the body. I usually just go to the second thread and cut there....followed by some buffing to even it up.

It should be fine though. Its mostly just a cosmetic defect. The first one I made looks like that. I've been trying to dump it for like $20 for a while :laugh:

Vortec MAX · Post by **Vortec MAX** » 23 Jul 2009, 21:22

Medula Oblongata wrote:They're not going to be cheap, unfortunately.

Between the blank die body cost ($30.00), the cost of the custom reamer and its very short life (the die material is extremely hard and the reamer only lasted 8 cuts, at a cost of more than $300.00), and my time, they'll likely be about $80.00.

I still want one. One is mine all mine all mine. Let me know the total with shipping.

Mike

LK45s · Post by **LK45s** » 24 Jul 2009, 08:29

Put me down for one too MO.

Post by **Grantness** » 24 Jul 2009, 09:38

Medula Oblongata wrote:Between the blank die body cost ($30.00), the cost of the custom reamer and its very short life (the die material is extremely hard and the reamer only lasted 8 cuts, at a cost of more than $300.00)

What material was the reamer made out of? You werent able to resharpen it? Did you pre-cut a pilot hole with a seperate reamer (i.e. decimal reamer) or did you do the whole job w/ that one reamer?

Im surprised by how short a time that reamer lasted. I mean, many companies will rent out their reamers for a relatively small amount of money. If they only lasted 8-10 times, I doubt they would rent them out so cheaply like that. Was it heat treated properly?

Norwood Matt · Post by **Norwood Matt** » 12 Aug 2009, 04:23

MO,

I'm interested in one of those 3 crimp dies. Please let me know what I need to do to get one.

TIA,
Matt

curlysir · Post by **curlysir** » 21 Dec 2011, 14:34

Grantness wrote:
njogi wrote:I used 218 Bee Lee FCD that I had ordered with Lee 5.7 dies. Used a Band Saw to cut the die body/sleeve to 1.952 and the insert/collet to 1.095 per Maerlyn13. Got to above measurements...Very close after the polishing...

The Insert/Collet has now a little play ...Loose ..in the Sleeve...Is that OK?
I tried to tell you that was gonna be too short for the body. Its best to cut the insert first so you can judge how deep to cut the body. I usually just go to the second thread and cut there....followed by some buffing to even it up.

It should be fine though. Its mostly just a cosmetic defect. The first one I made looks like that. I've been trying to dump it for like $20 for a while :laugh:

Resurrecting an old thread. Been reading about the crimp die and decided to make one using the 218 Bee Lee FCD like described here and in the other thread. How is the best way to determine how much to cut off the collet and the die? Details appreciated. Just received the die today and will start cutting, grinding, polishing soon.

RWD57 · Post by **RWD57** » 22 Dec 2011, 12:01

Years ago I reloaded for a commercial operation and we frequently encountered requests and/or requirements to crimp ammo for which crimp dies were not available. The solution to this problem was simple. After we seated the bullet normally, we pulled the decapping rod/stem out of the resizing die and ran the loaded rounds back into the resizing die, which crimped the bullet very uniformly. Note that we did not run the cartridge all the way back in to the resizing die, but ran it in only far enough to squeeze a bit of the neck around the bullet, usually less than 1/8 of an inch after resistance was felt. We also employed the resizing die as a crimp die on powerful handgun cartridges when the factory crimp/bullet seater proved incapable of holding the bullets through repeated recoil in the cylinder. On the 5.7, I've been loading moly-coated Nosler Ballistic Tips without a crimp of any kind with excellent results.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 22 Dec 2011, 19:23

I used a 22 hornet FCD as the starter for modification and my shell holder is a hornady. My final collet length was 1.075" which gave me about 20 to 30 thousandths on the crimp. Since you are using a different FCD start by sticking a resized/trimmed piece of brass in the shell holder and measure the length of the brass sticking beyond the holder. Then add about 75 thousandths to that for a starting length. You can then grind off some as you test to get the crimp width you want – better to start long and trim down (I trimed to much on mine initially). However, if you trim too much you can always bond/weld a thin piece of shim material to the bottom to thicken it back up (what I did). You can also check the thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1438" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for FCD modification.

curlysir · Post by **curlysir** » 23 Dec 2011, 11:41

starfury wrote:I used a 22 hornet FCD as the starter for modification and my shell holder is a hornady. My final collet length was 1.075" which gave me about 20 to 30 thousandths on the crimp. Since you are using a different FCD start by sticking a resized/trimmed piece of brass in the shell holder and measure the length of the brass sticking beyond the holder. Then add about 75 thousandths to that for a starting length. You can then grind off some as you test to get the crimp width you want – better to start long and trim down (I trimed to much on mine initially). However, if you trim too much you can always bond/weld a thin piece of shim material to the bottom to thicken it back up (what I did). You can also check the thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1438" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for FCD modification.

Thanks for the the reply. Right now somewhere around 1.083" +/- appears to be what I am shooting for based on my collet. My 218 Bee collet is 1.292" long which is .053 shorter then the 1.345" case length. Using the same reasoning for the 5.7 X 28 the length should be 1.135" - .053 = 1.082" +/-. Using your method of adding .075" to the length of the shell above the shell holder gives me 1.008" + .075' = 1.083". I think I will start at 1.100" and trim from there based on crimping results.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 23 Dec 2011, 13:45

Sounds like a good plan! If I remember from the other threads the bee FCD might have issues with hitting the case shoulder if it is shortened too much - so move up on it slowly and stop when you get a good looking crimp. Good luck!

curlysir · Post by **curlysir** » 24 Dec 2011, 10:58

Here is what I have ended up with. Lee 218 Bee FCD. Collet Length 1.093", Threaded collar Length 2.0".

This gives me a crimp length of between .030 and .040" depending on case length with a diameter reduction of between .002" and .003". This is with a Lee Turret Press.

Is there a "Idea" crimp length to try for?

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 24 Dec 2011, 11:37

My final crimp length is about 0.030" and has worked fine. I think you are good to go!

s64woody · Post by **s64woody** » 26 Dec 2011, 20:40

I bought a Lee 218 Bee Factory Crimp Die to modify for use with the 5.7. The collet slots ended up being more than short enough to allow it to be shortened to function with the 5.7 case. I THINK we ended up taking .235 inches off of both the collet and body.
A lath is a wonderful thing.

s64woody · Post by **s64woody** » 27 Dec 2011, 21:55

The Lee Factory Crimp Die mentioned above ended up producing very nice .030 inch wide crimps on my cases.

I am now curious just how much effort should be expended on the crimp? On my first attempt I think my caliper shows about .004 inches reduction in diameter after the crimp is in place. Is this enough, too much or what?

The bullet being crimped is a Sierra 40 gr. Hornet, #1200, which does not have a cannelure.

DAVADAR · Post by **DAVADAR** » 19 Feb 2012, 02:32

I hope not to step on anyone's toes, but I found out a while back while looking for a Lee factory crimp die for my .300rsaum (Lee factory crimp dies, in my opinion, is lees best invention. They have some other good stuff, but most companies have better, though you definitely pay for it.) that you can get a custom made factory crimp die from Lee for $25, just send two empty shells of the required caliber, I assume trimmed to optimal required length. I've never had a problem with a Lee fcd, and seem to give better accuracy than without.

empty_head · Post by **empty_head** » 02 Apr 2012, 15:21

I prefer to follow the following reloading premises on crimping bottleneck cartridges:

First: Try seating your bullets without expanding the neck. Depending on the elasticity of the batch of brass your cases were made from that should do the trick. Watch the first few bullets going in to make sure the copper jacket is not being shaved.

Second: If the jacket is shaving then set the neck expander ball to open the top .005 of the case just enough to stop the shaving. The bullet will push its way in and should have sufficient neck tension. Normally this should be the end of experimenting with crimps. A crimp's only purpose is to keep the bullet from coming out under recoil. I believe most readers would agree recoil is close to nonexistent.

Third: If your neck expander always opens the case mouth too much, fix it. Remove it from the die and caliper the diameter. If the diameter of the expander ball is larger than .226 it is time to get out the 1200 grit carborundum paper. DO NOT USE A DREMEL TYPE TOOL. Hold a small square of sandpaper in your off hand. Using virtually no pressure on the paper rotate the expander a short time. Wipe the expander clean and caliper it again. Be careful to keep the expander as round as possible. After sanding your expander down to .226 start over at the First step until your bullets seat without shaving. The best carborundum paper I have found is at Harbor Freight. It is made in India on a yellow backing paper.

Fourth: To salvage cases that have had the mouth opened too much, slowly adjust in a very slight taper crimp. NEVER use a roll crimp on a rifle cartridge. You do not really want to crimp the case, you just want to restore the shape of the brass as close as possible to original.

Remember, using a crimp increases pressure, reducing velocity and accuracy. These are only my opinions and information I have taken from others. These guidelines have served me well up to .308. Use them at your own risk. Crimps should be used only when called for. I have never crimped a 5.7 case except to repair carelessness with the Third step. Thanks for listening and snipe at will.

satellitedr3ams · Post by **satellitedr3ams** » 15 Jun 2015, 15:04

Lee makes a factory crimp for the 5.7 now. I will do a review once I use it. till then, anyone else feel free.

http://leeprecision.com/fact-cmp-die-5.7x28-fn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Rapier1772** » 15 Jun 2015, 15:13

I'm too skeered to crimp my 5.7 loads, too easy to overpressurize it. I've never crimped a bottle-necked round, just the roll & taper crimps on straight cases.
Good luck y'all.

satellitedr3ams · Post by **satellitedr3ams** » 21 Jun 2015, 05:15

Took the lee crimp all apart and cleaned up the metal flakes in the slits of the collet and just smooth any rough parts seen with some files & flitz. Seems to work just fine.

Kiran04 · Post by **Kiran04** » 19 Aug 2015, 12:28

If I'm going to try crimping my loads, how much do I need to lower the charge?

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » 19 Aug 2015, 13:46

I recently got the Lee FCD and I"m pretty happy with it with my cast loads. Haven't used it for anything else, quite a neck on the 5.7. Unless you're up near max, I don't think it'll give you any pressure issues putting a crimp on. Maybe do a known safe low charge, ten crimped and ten not, see what your velocity difference is. Theory says your ES should drop also, but I hear that's not always the case.

Post by **panzermk2** » 19 Aug 2015, 14:45

A good crimp, min 5k psi increase and your pressure spike is sooner.

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