Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Reloading info for the 5.7x28mm

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Kiran04
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Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by Kiran04 » 11 Mar 2016, 09:04

So I know lots of us have tests and ladders run, but what is your favorite powder load with the 5.7 x 28 and why? I'm currently using 6.4 grains of VV 3N38 with Hornady 40 grain vmax and a light taper crimp. Nosler makes great bullets too, but they're 40 grain is more expensive than the Hornady and I don't notice the difference in accuracy. I like the heavier 40 grain bullets more than the 27 grain factory because of the added impact force. Plus, the 40 grainers did better on the ballistics gel test than the 27 grain from the red box ammunition.

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by panzermk2 » 11 Mar 2016, 11:07

"27 grain from the red box ammunition"

Could not be more wrong. When you say red box you mean the 198?

The 27gr outperforms on every level. FYI impact energy is a combination of velocity and weight NOT just weight.
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Kiran04
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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by Kiran04 » 11 Mar 2016, 11:18

Even when buffman tried the 198 on a gel block it made lackluster progress through the medium.

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by panzermk2 » 11 Mar 2016, 23:01

Kiran04 wrote:Even when buffman tried the 198 on a gel block it made lackluster progress through the medium.

What video did you watch?
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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by GONRA » 12 Mar 2016, 14:16

Redoing a 07/06/2013 post (topic: DHX bullets)

GONRA's very pleased with these 2 Standard Loads for my FsN Pistol.
(From what FN rifle owners seem say, these will be TOO HEAVY for the FN rifle.)
Load to OAL same as factory ammo. Use Winchester Small Rifle Primers.

36 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade bullets, True Blue Powder (6.3 grains MAX),

27 grain DHX bullets, True Blue Powder (6.7 grains MAX) per John 743 loading info.
(Since 2013, others have reported DHX bullets are no more... Glad I gotta lot at the tyme!)

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by Kiran04 » 12 Mar 2016, 18:09

panzermk2 wrote:
Kiran04 wrote:Even when buffman tried the 198 on a gel block it made lackluster progress through the medium.

What video did you watch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_Qzs4Odyo#t=85" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's a replication of what Mrgunsngear did a couple years ago with a nearly replicated result. 9 inches of penetration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzGDVLPoYxI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SS197SR, on the other hand, had adequate penetration with equally as impressive looking wound tracks as SS198. The rounds did not all expand as intended, but with the damage tracks they created, expansion doesn't seem to be an issue.

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by panzermk2 » 12 Mar 2016, 23:40

Kiran04 wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:
Kiran04 wrote:Even when buffman tried the 198 on a gel block it made lackluster progress through the medium.

What video did you watch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_Qzs4Odyo#t=85" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's a replication of what Mrgunsngear did a couple years ago with a nearly replicated result. 9 inches of penetration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzGDVLPoYxI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SS197SR, on the other hand, had adequate penetration with equally as impressive looking wound tracks as SS198. The rounds did not all expand as intended, but with the damage tracks they created, expansion doesn't seem to be an issue.


The 40gr can't hold a candle to the damage the 27gr does.






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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by Kiran04 » 13 Mar 2016, 16:50

Your ammunition is on another level than SS198. I have to load my own since EA ammunition is both rare and expensive. There is no 27 grain bullet available anymore as far as I know for reloading, so I make do with what I have. The 40 grain vmax has been the bullet I have had the most success with, other than the 30 grain Barnes varmint grenade, which is also unavailable.

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by panzermk2 » 13 Mar 2016, 21:34

Along with our brass we will be making our own version of the 27gr bullet only it 25gr and a harder core. We will be selling this bullet also along with our brass.
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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by Rapier1772 » 13 Mar 2016, 22:04

panzermk2 wrote:Along with our brass we will be making our own version of the 27gr bullet only it 25gr and a harder core. We will be selling this bullet also along with our brass.
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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by Grantness » 17 Mar 2016, 17:17

~8.2gr HS7, 27gr SS195 bullet, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, OAL 1.585, Trim: 1.135 crimped with modified Lee Factory Crimp Die

My old standby. Good for ~2350fps. You might have trouble locating some HS7 though :D

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by spyderco monkey » 17 Mar 2016, 23:46

panzermk2 wrote:Along with our brass we will be making our own version of the 27gr bullet only it 25gr and a harder core. We will be selling this bullet also along with our brass.
Thats fantastic news! Will it be a jacketed projectile or a custom turned solid like the T6?

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by panzermk2 » 19 Mar 2016, 10:17

Jacketed, we already have the T6B.
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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by Kiran04 » 19 Mar 2016, 12:43

panzermk2 wrote:Jacketed, we already have the T6B.
Do you have any pictures or pre-production samples?

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by panzermk2 » 20 Mar 2016, 15:48

Just cut a 27gr in half and you get the idea. It will be a cup though instead of open at the base, Ti core instead of aluminum and the air pocket in front of the core just like the 27gr.


FNH current 27gr bullet used in the 192/195/198 and S4M.

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by spyderco monkey » 20 Mar 2016, 17:11

panzermk2 wrote:Just cut a 27gr in half and you get the idea. It will be a cup though instead of open at the base, Ti core instead of aluminum and the air pocket in front of the core just like the 27gr.


FNH current 27gr bullet used in the 192/195/198 and S4M.

Image
That sounds excellent. Have you considered having the hollow area filled with plastic to keep it from smashing flat? This will extend the velocity envelope in which it would penetrate, likely down into the 2000fps range.

The Corbins balls are built for this, and add almost no weight:
http://www.corbins.com/bball.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or a glass filled nylon cone.

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by panzermk2 » 21 Mar 2016, 10:11

spyderco monkey wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:Just cut a 27gr in half and you get the idea. It will be a cup though instead of open at the base, Ti core instead of aluminum and the air pocket in front of the core just like the 27gr.


FNH current 27gr bullet used in the 192/195/198 and S4M.

Image
That sounds excellent. Have you considered having the hollow area filled with plastic to keep it from smashing flat? This will extend the velocity envelope in which it would penetrate, likely down into the 2000fps range.

I want the tip to smash flat so it does tissue damage. Don't care one bit about slowing it down. The tip smashing really does not reduce penetration since when you hit something hard the jacket peels back and the core punches through like a hole punch.

So the pocket gives the best of both worlds. Massive tissue damage or massive penetration when needed. In fact with the cup base instead of open it will penetrate even more.

OH and it will be a surprise but don't expect my core to have a flat face.


Image

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by spyderco monkey » 21 Mar 2016, 18:29

panzermk2 wrote:

I want the tip to smash flat so it does tissue damage. Don't care one bit about slowing it down. The tip smashing really does not reduce penetration since when you hit something hard the jacket peels back and the core punches through like a hole punch.

So the pocket gives the best of both worlds. Massive tissue damage or massive penetration when needed. In fact with the cup base instead of open it will penetrate even more.

OH and it will be a surprise but don't expect my core to have a flat face.


Image

Image
That's interesting. However isn't the primary effectiveness of the SS195 projectile due to it's long length combined with it's tumbling mechanism - similar to the design of the 5.45 7N6?

By smashing flat or having the core separate, doesn't that essentially turn it from a tumbling 0.85"x0.224" into a 0.55"x0.224", and in the case of the core separating, a 0.5"x0.175" projectile?

Likewise, by smashing flat and losing it's jacket, doesn't that eat up energy and subsequent gel penetration and performance?

The smashing flat + piercing core is ideally suited to the Russian style 7N31 9mm bullet due to the wide and blunt profile of 9mm projectiles:
Image

However given the already pointy and narrow profile of a .224 projectile, wouldn't it be more efficient to maintain the structural integrity of this pointy projectile, rather than optimizing it's pointy core?

Also by having the entire projectile maintain integrity, you could then eschew the high cost of Titanium, which is an expensive and rather dangerous material to work with, and use Zinc, copper, aluminum, or even sintered ceramic. This would likely save quite a bit, especially given the volume and demand for the S4.

Sorry for all the unsolicited advice! It's just something I've been thinking about for awhile now.

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by Grantness » 21 Mar 2016, 19:06

The S4 type bullet gives you the best of both worlds: penetration/tumbling and fragmentation. It does way more damage when the jacket separates (which you start to see at velocities >~2300fps or through disruption) than when it maintains its integrity. If you look at tests where the S4 passes through an intermediate barrier like a IIIa vest first, in a lot of cases it actually tends to yield more damage than with no protection at all! In this caliber and at these speeds, a non-deforming solid bullet has relatively poor terminal ballistics. The partitioning of the T6B is an elegant way to overcome some of these shortcomings. Ideally looking forward what you would want is a bullet that offers the ability to punch through hard targets like a solid w/ deep penetration but also have the fragmentation and cavitation of a jacketed round... which can dump energy inside soft targets. I think Jay is on exactly the right track here.

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Re: Favorite 5.7 reloading powder/load?

Post by spyderco monkey » 21 Mar 2016, 20:46

Grantness wrote:The S4 type bullet gives you the best of both worlds: penetration/tumbling and fragmentation. It does way more damage when the jacket separates (which you start to see at velocities >~2300fps or through disruption) than when it maintains its integrity. If you look at tests where the S4 passes through an intermediate barrier like a IIIa vest first, in a lot of cases it actually tends to yield more damage than with no protection at all! In this caliber and at these speeds, a non-deforming solid bullet has relatively poor terminal ballistics. The partitioning of the T6B is an elegant way to overcome some of these shortcomings. Ideally looking forward what you would want is a bullet that offers the ability to punch through hard targets like a solid w/ deep penetration but also have the fragmentation and cavitation of a jacketed round... which can dump energy inside soft targets. I think Jay is on exactly the right track here.
My concern is that as velocity lowers due to distance, the jacket might not penetrate at all, and just the inner core. For example we're seeing inconsistent/ no penetration of IIIA w/ SS198 @ 2000fps, depending on how the tip smashes. Some of the better IIIA is stopping SS195 from 10" away.

Yet SS191, which is nearly identical in weight and energy, penetrates out to 100 yards. Some would say this is due to the steel tip, but I think it's more to the bullet maintaining it's FMJ profile and not smashing flat - something which could be achieved largely through a sturdy plastic tip. Afterall, the original 5.7X28 SS90 was entirely plastic core.

One of the major advantages of the Five Seven is its utility at distance. Assuming a starting velocity of 2450fps, what is the velocity at 25, 50, 75, 100 yards? At what distance does the S4M Cinderella back to SS195?

Meanwhile, if just the Ti core makes it through with the new projectile, isn't it just a ~20gr x 4.5mm x 12mm FMJ at that point?

A tumbling solid .224 might be slightly less nasty then a expanding/ fragmenting jacket, but it seems to offer the potential for more reliable and consistent performance over a wider velocity envelope, while still being quite impressive.

Here is the S4M @ 2300fps without smashing flat or separating the jacket- that looks pretty ideal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA6wf41ze9U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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