Home Grown SS 190

Cashflow · Post by **Cashflow** » 23 Sep 2013, 16:15

Just an FYI, Rocky Mountain Reloading has SS 190 pulled bullets in case you want to roll your own.

Post by **jmz5** » 24 Sep 2013, 03:30

They seem to be decently priced too.

shopsmart · Post by **shopsmart** » 24 Sep 2013, 04:22

It's great they can be bought. The big question i have is WHY did they get pulled. To supply brass for the civilian market or something else?

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 24 Sep 2013, 06:55

No clue. The loaded ammo is worth more than that.

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 24 Sep 2013, 08:49

Speculation: Some departments don't want to sell SS190 to the civilian market. They may agree to sell the SS190 to a third party with a condition that the rounds be broken down and components can be sold, but not the loaded SS190 ammunition.

Pure speculation, but makes sense. Using this approach the LE makes some money from the third party and the third party makes some money and the SS190 never directly goes to the civilians.

Fotis · Post by **Fotis** » 24 Sep 2013, 08:52

Cashflow · Post by **Cashflow** » 24 Sep 2013, 09:12

I have a bunch of brass so I figured what the heck, I'll just work up my own load and see how it goes. If I ever get around to doing it I'll post some results. Too many irons in the fire right now but maybe this winter.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 24 Sep 2013, 18:24

I sent them a message asking if they had a line on the Brass.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 24 Sep 2013, 19:53

These I assume on a Federal level are OK, since the bullet is the AP part, and you're not manufacturing a bullet, simply loading it into ammunition?

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 24 Sep 2013, 21:12

Buffman wrote:These I assume on a Federal level are OK, since the bullet is the AP part, and you're not manufacturing a bullet, simply loading it into ammunition?

Technically the bullet does not meet the standard for AP since it is similar to the M855 steel core bullet per the ATF. It is one of those grey areas left for interpretation. You can buy and shoot the M855 steel core bullet out of all versions of the AR15 including the pistol. The SS190 bullet per the definition of AP would be listed the same based on makeup. The ATF only has a formal finding on the SS196 bullet and round but never put a formal finding on the remaining FN 5.7 rounds. On the page that they list the formal on the SS196 they show FNH's list on the bottom with FNH's listing of them as AP but the ATF never made the designation per another brief letter posted. Only FNH has listed them as AP. As to the legality of your state and area is a different issue. But for the sake of everyone here on the forum I put in a formal request to the ATF for clarification. It seems that some states hold the FiveSeven as a magical armor piercing hand gun no mater what bullet you load.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 24 Sep 2013, 22:16

grimm, technically the ATF did classify SS190 as AP in a recent FTB (have not been able to source it). Someone was looking to challenge that assetment, but no one has heard back from them.

So given that FTB, I think it's still OK since the bullet is already constructed..

Post by **panzermk2** » 25 Sep 2013, 09:28

As per the ATF FTBs have no legal standing anymore,
apply to only the person who requested it,
and they have made it a violation of ATF regulations to share or make public FTB's.

If you load these I would keep the amount to a minimum and STFU about it if you do.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 25 Sep 2013, 12:31

panzermk2 wrote:As per the ATF FTBs have no legal standing anymore,
apply to only the person who requested it,
and they have made it a violation of ATF regulations to share or make public FTB's.

If you load these I would keep the amount to a minimum and STFU about it if you do.

Really when did that happen? Maybe that's why the FTB about SS190 being classified as AP disappeared since it was to specific person, and shared openly on forum

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 25 Sep 2013, 17:10

Buffman wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:As per the ATF FTBs have no legal standing anymore,
apply to only the person who requested it,
and they have made it a violation of ATF regulations to share or make public FTB's.

If you load these I would keep the amount to a minimum and STFU about it if you do.
Really when did that happen? Maybe that's why the FTB about SS190 being classified as AP disappeared since it was to specific person, and shared openly on forum

That is why I sent in a formal request for a new answer. I found a copy of 2 different FTB's that contradict each other in this very aspect. By composition it doesn't fit the parameters in one, but in the other they classified it as such because of it being fired from the FiveSeven. Which based on the make up you could draw a correlation between the M855 bullet. Both bullets can be fired from a pistol platform. Why should the FiveSeven be treated differently then an AR15 pistol is baffling. The AR pistol still beats it in velocity with the heavier bullet.

Post by **panzermk2** » 25 Sep 2013, 22:05

Buffman wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:As per the ATF FTBs have no legal standing anymore,
apply to only the person who requested it,
and they have made it a violation of ATF regulations to share or make public FTB's.

If you load these I would keep the amount to a minimum and STFU about it if you do.
Really when did that happen? Maybe that's why the FTB about SS190 being classified as AP disappeared since it was to specific person, and shared openly on forum

About the time they went after me. There are hundreds of FTBs that counter each other so as to cover their collective asses the ATF made up even more new rules.

You see they can break the law but you can't.

Cashflow · Post by **Cashflow** » 26 Sep 2013, 11:44

Mr. Wolf, you said they came after you. Is all that documented on this site or would you care to explain? Just curious and if I need to do a search I certainly will. Thanks!

Post by **panzermk2** » 26 Sep 2013, 12:17

Cashflow wrote:Mr. Wolf, you said they came after you. Is all that documented on this site or would you care to explain? Just curious and if I need to do a search I certainly will. Thanks!

It's up here somewhere.

Basically the ATF did a midnight re interpretation of the 68GCA. Reclassified a group rifle cartridges as pistol. In Pistol solid brass bullets according to the 68GCA are AP. So with AR15 pistols and Thompson Contenders you can see where they went with t. They came after me since I was small. Not knowing that we use Barnes bullets they dragged Freedom Arms group into the fight. Who by the way is still fighting the ATF over it.

Basically after they changed the rules raided me about 8 hours later. Of course it was illegal and in the end had to issue a letter of apology and a check to cover our losses.

From the start not giving me or any body else proper notification or time to comply with their reinterpretation doomed them. They knew they where wrong but figured they could squash the little guy. Instead they picked a fight with a bigger dog.

I moved on to copper bullets that are kosher in pistols and much harder then the brass I was using so now my bullets defeat armor even better.

Cashflow · Post by **Cashflow** » 26 Sep 2013, 12:28

Thanks for the explanation. Sheesh, what a pain in the butt! You would think they had better things to do.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 27 Sep 2013, 05:33

If anyone pulls the trigger on these, I'd like to buy some to experiment with a 5.56 load. I can't afford to buy 1000

Fotis · Post by **Fotis** » 27 Sep 2013, 06:38

Buffman wrote:If anyone pulls the trigger on these, I'd like to buy some to experiment with a 5.56 load. I can't afford to buy 1000

me too . 500 would be a nicer lot.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 27 Sep 2013, 08:51

I'll buy the 1000 if someone will commit to at least buying half or more.

Cashflow · Post by **Cashflow** » 27 Sep 2013, 09:57

Guys, right next to the 1000 count is a 500 count for 90 bucks. I would like to hear what you find out about the load for 5.56 since I'm building an SBR in that caliber.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 27 Sep 2013, 12:28

durr

if someone wants to go in on the 500 then I'd be game. I only want like 100-150.

Post by **c1demo** » 27 Sep 2013, 19:40

Buffman wrote:durr if someone wants to go in on the 500 then I'd be game. I only want like 100-150.

I bought 1000, I can send you 100 to test.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 27 Sep 2013, 19:53

C1demo,

I think I got it taken care of

Thanks for the offer.

CoryS78 · Post by **CoryS78** » 28 Sep 2013, 09:46

Hey guys, been lurking for several weeks since i got my PS90 but first post, this thread raised my curiosity... has anyone tried loading S109 62gr into a 5.7 with the intention of subsonic fire with a suppressor? I have a box of the 40gr vmax which I recently started reloading, but this is a different use case.

I'm well aware of the challenges with reloading 5.7 and without regular access to a outdoor range I'm hesitant to attempt any load development on a new bullet, especially at the upper range of the bullet weights for this cartridge.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 28 Sep 2013, 11:57

CoryS78 wrote:Hey guys, been lurking for several weeks since i got my PS90 but first post, this thread raised my curiosity... has anyone tried loading S109 62gr into a 5.7 with the intention of subsonic fire with a suppressor? I have a box of the 40gr vmax which I recently started reloading, but this is a different use case.

I'm well aware of the challenges with reloading 5.7 and without regular access to a outdoor range I'm hesitant to attempt any load development on a new bullet, especially at the upper range of the bullet weights for this cartridge.

I can tell you it will not stabilize out of the FiveSeven and keyholes. Also it is really too heavy of a round for 5.7x28 loads.

Post by **jmz5** » 28 Sep 2013, 13:01

If someone bought a large lot that is willing to part with a few, I'd be willing to trade a year of gold membership for a hand full for testing.

PM me if interested.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 28 Sep 2013, 15:53

I'm giving some to the local loader to see what can be made up in 556

He thinks a slower twist is needed but since these are stabilized from a 1:9 already, so we are going to try.

CoryS78 · Post by **CoryS78** » 28 Sep 2013, 16:08

grimmond wrote: I can tell you it will not stabilize out of the FiveSeven and keyholes. Also it is really too heavy of a round for 5.7x28 loads.

I was worried about that... guess i'm in for 1000 of the 32gr

I'm happy to split a few hundred out, if anyone wants some let me know. I'll hold off putting in an order for a day or two in case i need to get more than 1k of them... also looking at the 50gr frangible, probably going to pick up some of those for a nice home defense round.

Cashflow · Post by **Cashflow** » 28 Sep 2013, 21:13

jmz5,

PM sent.

crazymikie · Post by **crazymikie** » 29 Sep 2013, 04:44

These are pretty large - almost .1" longer than a 55 FMJ - be careful when using load data for normal 30-ish grain projectiles. Keep in mind there is reduced case capacity when selecting a power charge.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 29 Sep 2013, 09:35

For those interested in loading these. The SS190 factory OAL avg is 1.59"/ 40.5mm.. Searched high and low on the net for any load data and only came up with one small post on another forum. I'm not sure how good it is but they listed using CCI400 primers, and started at 5.8gr True Blue and took it up to 6.5gr. Unless one of the senior members or others here have done any testing or has any different information to share this is all I could find.

crazymikie · Post by **crazymikie** » 29 Sep 2013, 15:38

Here is what I found-

OAL: 1.570" (Feeding issues were happening at 1.59")
Federal SR Primer
Trim to length: 1.132"
5.6 - 6.4 gr VV 3N37
Loaded with Lee dies with no crimp
All 1X fired brass

The max load yielded about 2050 fps out of a 4.75" barrel and had a 10 fps ES for 5 shot group. I didn't think going higher than that was a good idea since the case was full. I would have prefered to use 3N38, but it would have been a very compressed load. According to QuickLoad, this should be around 45k PSI (take that for what it's worth). Shoulder movement seems to be pretty consistent with factory SS197 ammo and there isn't any excessive case head expansion.

Use this at your own risk. I have some AA#7 powder I may try to use- it might yield a little more velocity.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 29 Sep 2013, 15:59

Interesting. Let us know how it goes. I plan on working it up with True Blue, Longshot, And VVn105.

crazymikie · Post by **crazymikie** » 29 Sep 2013, 17:20

It seems like the factory stuff clocked 1950-2050 out of a pistol, based on some videos I saw, so I figured aiming for that range was the way to go.

My guess is N105 will be too slow to get good velocity out of it. QL says a full case (6.4 gr) will only be 1800 fps. These velocities were optimistic for 3N37, so it might actually be slower than that. From other calibers I've used 3N37 with, the burn rate seems to have slowed down a bit since the QL data was collected because those figures were optimistic as well. I don't have any N105, so I'm not sure if it is off as well.

According to QL, some good starting loads for True Blue and Longshot would be 5.0 grains (that would put you at 30k PSI and should clock around 1770 fps out of a pistol. 45k PSI gets you up to 6.0 grains which should be about 1770 fps from a pistol. Again, I take no responsibility for these calculations, and use them at your own peril

For these projectiles, both powders seem like they should perform very similarly.

Hope that helps!

Mike

grimmond wrote:Interesting. Let us know how it goes. I plan on working it up with True Blue, Longshot, And VVn105.

tal35 · Post by **tal35** » 09 Oct 2013, 20:32

I was told by the guy at RMR that a law enforcement agency had the ss190 and did not want AP, so it was pulled down and reloaded with another bullet.

The factory powder load on the ss190 is 6.7 grains of powder with an OAL of 1.5800 to 1.5820 from the samples I had, which is the same as the law enforcement 27grain bullet , also 6.7 grains, from what both my scales say.

I reloaded a 30grain varmint grenade with 6.2 grains of true blue with oal of 1.491" at 2601fps approx.
and 45 grain solid barnes with 5.3 grains of true blue 1.59oal approx. 2009 fps both at 83 degrees F.and was using the ar15 16 inch upper for testing. I use the AR upper first and then PS90 , and Pistol. I would rather have the AR rifle go than the FN guns.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 10 Oct 2013, 13:39

So I received an official response from the ATF Firearms Technology Branch today. Even though both the m855 and the ss190 round do not fit the AP make up definition, the ATF says they are both classified as AP. They stated that only the m855 bullet has been exempted. Further more they stated that by Federal law it is not illegal to use or possess AP ammunition. But as we all know the laws of your individual state may restrict it. So unless your state has laws against it you are good to go. I will attempt to post their official email later.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 10 Oct 2013, 18:33

[email protected]

1:54 PM (5 hours ago)

Mr. XXXXXXXX,

This email is in response to the email you sent to the ATF Firearms Industry Program Branch (FIPB) concerning the legality of FN SS190 ammunition. Please see the attached link.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2005/ ... istol.html

The SS190 round is AP. The M855 is also AP ammunition, but has been exempted. It is not illegal to use or possess AP ammunition.

If you have additional questions, you may email the ATF Firearms Technology Branch at [email protected].

If you have further any further questions, please write our branch at the address below:

ATF Firearms Technology Branch

244 Needy Road

Martinsburg, WV 25405

I guess they didn't like me asking any questions about an outdated document by the final comment of "further any further". Other then me copying the note over, I only removed my name from the intro. Also let me reemphasize that you need to double check with your individual state, county, and city for their own imposed restrictions.

crazymikie · Post by **crazymikie** » 11 Oct 2013, 04:27

Thanks for the clarification on that.

Just a word of warning- I've done some testing with 3N38 and it was pretty consistent with the figures from QuickLoad. I'm not sure if my batch of 3N37 is just really different or if the formulation has changed, but it's definitely a lot slower than the sample use for calculations in QuickLoad.

If you have an older batch of 3N37, please be sure to start really low and work up slowly. The lot number on mine is 19.8.2011.

I just got my hands on some more brass that I'm processing now and I'll try to play around with some other powders.

tal35 · Post by **tal35** » 11 Oct 2013, 04:45

There are guys with smaller amounts avaialable on gunbroker

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 13 Oct 2013, 18:05

Got out and was able to do some more testing with these. I used pulled SS197SRLF factory fresh brass with the black lead free factory primer. Case length was approx 1.135" and OAL set at 1.90".. 6.3gr and 6.5gr True Blue for the tests.

6.3gr was 2157fps / ES=33, SD=12 / Fired and cycled well, minor primer flattening, with these primers this is probably slightly above max or at it.

6.5gr is Beyond Max = 2181fps avg /ES=87.09, SD= 44.37 / I do not suggest taking the loads up this high with factory primers. Had flattening on all and 2 pierced. Stiff recoil.

I plan on retesting with CCI400 primers and starting at 6.0gr and working it back up. In other tests I have found factory primers to flatten and pierce sooner then CCI400's.

tal35 · Post by **tal35** » 13 Oct 2013, 18:46

I updated my post earlier to show that my test results were with an AR15 5.7x28 since It would duplicate the ps90 fairly close.
Also, from what I can tell by playing with the site selling the ss190 bullets, they must have had in the neighborhood of 100k worth. As of now it looks like you could order 60-70k before it said there was not enough for the order.

FNaatic · Post by **FNaatic** » 21 Oct 2013, 07:26

tal35 wrote:
The factory powder load on the ss190 is 6.7 grains of powder with an OAL of 1.5800 to 1.5820 from the samples I had, which is the same as the law enforcement 27grain bullet , also 6.7 grains, from what both my scales say.

.

Does this mean that FN uses the same powder load for the ss190 & ss192 ? Even if the powder load is the same at 6.7 gr, is it a different mix of powders, slow vs fast burning? Since the projectiles are 31gr vs 28gr I was guessing that perhaps the powder mix was different since the projectiles are different weight.

tal35 · Post by **tal35** » 21 Oct 2013, 07:42

My thought is that it is the same, I would think they would use the same powder through the whole range of loadings and just change the amount. 27 to 31 isn't much difference, and I have seen as much as 1/2gr difference in 55 or 62 grain bullet bullet weights before. All that says is one bullet may chrono a bit higher. They are both LE rounds, so they are going to be the higher powered in my opinion, but I'm open to thoughts, as that's why we have these discussions.

FNaatic · Post by **FNaatic** » 21 Oct 2013, 08:10

tal35 wrote:My thought is that it is the same, I would think they would use the same powder through the whole range of loadings and just change the amount. 27 to 31 isn't much difference, and I have seen as much as 1/2gr difference in 55 or 62 grain bullet bullet weights before. All that says is one bullet may chrono a bit higher. They are both LE rounds, so they are going to be the higher powered in my opinion, but I'm open to thoughts, as that's why we have these discussions.

Thank you, now I am wondering how does EA bump their 32gr projectiles from the factory 2000fps as seen in the ss190 and have their T6 loads at around 2400fps for the same weight projectiles. Are they using one type of powder throughout or are they tweaking long vs fast combinations...

Reason for my earlier question is that I have some brass and the powder loads from some pulled ss192s and was wondering if I can just reuse the powder to load up some other projectiles and all I would have to do is to adjust the powder load...I was affraid, as a buddy of mine put it, is that FN uses proprietary loads for each of their rounds, so you could not use powder from a 40gr vmax to load up some T6 28gr or 32 gr loads because the 40gr loads would be a different blend of powders, fast vs. slow...

tal35 · Post by **tal35** » 21 Oct 2013, 08:19

When I get some time, I will pull a couple 27grain red box (ss19?) and put the 31 grain ap on it, and shoot it from my 16" AR style gun (again, I would rather damage it than an expensive gun).
Ithink it would be quite expensive to blend a powder for each load, keep them separate , etc. instead of using one powder and build on it.
They can to a point play with seating, crimp, primer, etc. for small changes also.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 21 Oct 2013, 09:20

FNH doesn't even consistently use the same powder for one round, let alone across the board. EA & a few reloaders here have done extensive testing on this.

I would not recommend reusing any of FNH factory powder - except when used for lighting fires

FNaatic · Post by **FNaatic** » 21 Oct 2013, 09:24

Rapier1772 wrote:FNH doesn't even consistently use the same powder for one round, let alone across the board. EA & a few reloaders here have done extensive testing on this.

I would not recommend reusing any of FNH factory powder - except when used for lighting fires

So a properly loaded True or Accurate powders will be better? Thanks...

tal35 · Post by **tal35** » 21 Oct 2013, 09:29

I would be interested in see their extensive testing to see how their results were derived. Do you have a link to their data to show it?
Although I'm sure their lots differ from lot to lot.

hategordon · Post by **hategordon** » 21 Oct 2013, 10:54

I was wondering if their was any load data with good starting points for using either number 5 or number 7 powder with these ss190's. any info would be great.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 21 Oct 2013, 11:38

tal35 wrote:I would be interested in see their extensive testing to see how their results were derived. Do you have a link to their data to show it?
Although I'm sure their lots differ from lot to lot.

You're just going to have to do a lot of reading, it's on here somewhere but I don't the time or patience to look for it. IIRC, Grantness & iFire are two members besides EA who have done testing on it but I forget who else.

hategordon · Post by **hategordon** » 21 Oct 2013, 11:44

thanks for the help I don't mind looking. thanks for the info to get me started in the search

crazymikie · Post by **crazymikie** » 21 Oct 2013, 12:52

hategordon wrote:thanks for the help I don't mind looking. thanks for the info to get me started in the search

I would stay away from #5 in 5.7x28. It's a lot less forgiving than #7 with pressure spikes. I tried #5 with 35 gr VMax bullets for plinking loads and didn't like it at all. The velocities were a lot lower than the published data from Accurate, but the cases were ejecting pretty far. I haven't had a chance to try #7 yet, however, I've used it in other high pressure loads (9x23 Win) with good results.

I should also note that #7 has changed forumulation, so be careful with load data.

From some quick crunching I did in Quickload using data for the newer formula #7, 6.4 gr #7 with a SS190 bullet seated at 1.570 OAL, should yield about 1825 fps out of a pistol. This is approximately 30k psi and should be safe. 7.1 gr gets you about 2025 fps, and is around 40k PSI.

Be careful and look for pressure signs. I take no responsibility for this load data since I haven't tried it myself.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 21 Oct 2013, 19:48

Someone said SS198 has 6.8gr of powder in the 2013 lot. This was from a entire pulled box average.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 21 Oct 2013, 22:15

hategordon wrote:I was wondering if their was any load data with good starting points for using either number 5 or number 7 powder with these ss190's. any info would be great.

A good starting point is 5.8gr with Accurate #5, CCI400 primer, case set to 1.135", and O.A.L. set at 1.585"-1.590".
I set mine at 1.590"( I do not have any issues with loading nor feeding at this length)
I highly recommend you be extremely accurate with your powder measuring with this powder. It is not as forgiving as others. But with care you will have no problems. I have been using it for testing various loads for over a year now.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 21 Oct 2013, 22:20

Buffman wrote:Someone said SS198 has 6.8gr of powder in the 2013 lot. This was from a entire pulled box average.

I only averaged 6.5gr of powder from a box I pulled of SS192 dated 2007.

hategordon · Post by **hategordon** » 22 Oct 2013, 03:50

Thank you for all the info. I am grateful. I have both #5 and #7 powders and have had good luck loading the 45gr Sierra softpoints and shooting them in my AR-57 and FnH pistol.

I purchased 2k of the SS190's and am looking to have some fun loading and shooting these.
I have been loading other rounds for a few years. and will be checking each load on theses. It will take more time but its worth it to make it right and safe.

I am grateful for all the help and insight you guys have given me on the Round. This is a great forum and glad I found it.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 22 Oct 2013, 05:36

grimmond wrote:
Buffman wrote:Someone said SS198 has 6.8gr of powder in the 2013 lot. This was from a entire pulled box average.
I only averaged 6.5gr of powder from a box I pulled of SS192 dated 2007.

From Recon on FNF

The 2013 has 6.8gr of powder consistently pulled from the same lot that Buffman used for his tests

I'm going to pull a 2007 Lot tonight..

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 22 Oct 2013, 20:24

Did they document they characteristics of the powder when they pulled the rounds?

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 22 Oct 2013, 20:29

no but I can pull 2013 lot as well.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 24 Oct 2013, 10:17

6.7-6.8gr~ 2013, vs 6.6gr~ 2007. Interesting that my blue/white box 195LF is 7.1gr

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 24 Oct 2013, 22:13

Thank you for posting that.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 27 Oct 2013, 17:08

5.56 loaded up

around 4000fps per load.. Not sure when I'll get them back

rfd298 · Post by **rfd298** » 29 Oct 2013, 16:41

In theory you can really get the SS190 bullet cooking in 5.56/.223. :p Ramshot X-terminator / Accurate 2230 (same thing) would be a good start... to get close to 4000 fps.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 29 Oct 2013, 17:12

The load my loader worked up was 3800 fps. Not sure how accurate they will be or if they will work from a 1:9 barrel at that speed. I should have these back next week.

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » 29 Oct 2013, 19:45

I run 40gr Vmax in my .223 in the neighborhood of 3600 with no trouble, I think you'll be ok at 3800. No idea about accuracy though.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 30 Oct 2013, 05:02

DoubleJ wrote:I run 40gr Vmax in my .223 in the neighborhood of 3600 with no trouble, I think you'll be ok at 3800. No idea about accuracy though.

Yeah. I imagine the length should help stabilize these (they're .81-.85" long), but my loader has never loaded them before, so he's unsure oh whether the 1:9 will work or if a 1:12-1:14 would be needed. Someone else said they may not cycle an AR either, so this will be a good experiment.

rfd298 · Post by **rfd298** » 30 Oct 2013, 15:27

rfd298 wrote:In theory you can really get the SS190 bullet cooking in 5.56/.223. :p Ramshot X-terminator / Accurate 2230 (same thing) would be a good start... to get close to 4000 fps.

Here is the results of two five shot groups. Not as good as one would of liked but it is what it is.
This rifle normally shoots 34gr Varmint Nightmare X-treme sub MOA all day long.
Source Rifle was a 24" RRA varmint upper with 1 in 8 twist barrel, Spikes Tactical lower, Geissele SSA trigger group, Redfield Revolution 4-12X 40mm scope.
Distance 100 yards
Source brass- Hornady 223 Remington once fired trimmed to 1.750
Bullet 32gr SS190
Powder Ramshot X-Terminator 29.5gr
COAL-2.260

string 1
3933
3910
3944
3921
3939
avg 3929
spread 34
std dev 14

group size 2.302"

string 2
3921
3944
3910
3881
3950
avg 3921
spread 69
std dev 28

group size 1.848"

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 30 Oct 2013, 18:41

did they cycle OK?

rfd298 · Post by **rfd298** » 31 Oct 2013, 15:35

Everything cycled fine. Brass looked good. Just a little disappointed with the accuracy.

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » 01 Nov 2013, 15:03

Maybe a different powder? I get 3" groups from RL15, 3/4" groups from TAC, everything else being the same. I think RL10 is good for light bullets, maybe 748 or Varget? Oh, or 8208, that stuff could make an oval bullet go straight.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 01 Nov 2013, 17:58

Have either of you tried or use CFE223 for any of your loads? I picked up a pound of it for real cheap but have only used it with 55gr FMJ, and some Cutting Edge Raptors recently.

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » 01 Nov 2013, 21:06

I just got a pound of it myself, it's been as hard to find as anything, but I haven't tried any loads yet. Maybe tomorrow. Looks like it favors lighter bullets

Edit: I was wrong, load data doesn't start until the 50gr GMX solid, so it's back to 10x

That extra 6" of barrel you're running makes those little bullets scream.
SPR clone, 18" Rainier 1:8 .223 Wylde
FC Brass, Alcan MaxFire Primer, 32gr pill, 2.24" COAL, 24.5gr RL-10x, no pressure signs @ primer
5 shots
2 MOA group (3/4 - 7/8 MOA with ammo it likes)
Hi - 3350
Low - 3276
Avg - 3318
ES - 74

Accuracy is disappointing, but got better as velocity increased, and it seems I have alot more room to grow this one, but maybe 10x is a bit too slow. Of course this is probably better accuracy than M855

I fired one of my slower (3200fps-ish) loads into a cast iron flange plate, penetration was almost identical to 7.62x39 from my AK, but there was no danger of it going through almost an inch of metal

tal35 · Post by **tal35** » 02 Nov 2013, 21:58

I Loaded 5.7x28 factory green tip 27 gr. with SS190 slugs, 31.2gr All rounds fired from ar15 style 5.7x28 upper 16". Powder charges were as follows:
1. pulled bullet 6.4 gr factory powder, replaced factory 27 gr bullet with SS190 all rds seated to 1.59" oal 2489fps
2. powder 6.5gr 2461 fps
3. powder 6.6 gr. 2489 fps
4. powder 6.5 gr. 2409 fps

test round factory blue tip 2144 fps
Temperature 44 degress 82% humidity
No evidence of primer flattening
Last : No crimp applied, thinking about a CH4 crimp tool but need input on it first.

So far So GOOD!

22eley · Post by **22eley** » 12 Nov 2013, 07:51

tal35 wrote:I Loaded 5.7x28 factory green tip 27 gr. with SS190 slugs, 31.2gr All rounds fired from ar15 style 5.7x28 upper 16". Powder charges were as follows:
1. pulled bullet 6.4 gr factory powder, replaced factory 27 gr bullet with SS190 all rds seated to 1.59" oal 2489fps
2. powder 6.5gr 2461 fps
3. powder 6.6 gr. 2489 fps
4. powder 6.5 gr. 2409 fps

test round factory blue tip 2144 fps
Temperature 44 degress 82% humidity
No evidence of primer flattening
Last : No crimp applied, thinking about a CH4 crimp tool but need input on it first.

So far So GOOD!

Did you tell me about this?

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 15 Dec 2013, 22:11

will try to find a way to test this week:

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » 17 Dec 2013, 17:17

Could we split the thread, put the AR stuff in the reloading forum? I've got some data to share, but feel like a hijacker.

18" Rainier Wylde chamber AR

FC brass, Alcan primer, 32gr black tip, used Lee 2nd edition load data average from 30 and 34gr loads, 2.230 COAL, A2200 powder.
24.6gr - Avg 3422 FPS, ES 124
25.0gr - Avg 3542 FPS, ES 66
25.4gr - Avg 3596 FPS, ES 78
25.8gr - Avg 3652 FPS, ES (Error, Only read one shot)
26.2gr - Avg 3705 FPS, ES 101
26.6gr - Avg 3753 FPS, ES 127

I never saw any pressure signs, brass wasn't trimmed or crimped, so that's probably the big ES, and accuracy was 2 MOA at best in a pretty stiff wind

I always shake each round after I load it, just a triple check for powder, and you can actually hear some of the pills inside the bullets rattle, so there's
the inaccuracy. Not sure if that's a design thing or from being pulled down. Groups actually seemed to tighten up as velocity went up, but it was windy, cold, and I was getting bored shooting through the chrony.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 24 Dec 2013, 13:16

Here is some load data for those wanting to load back for the FSN. I used unfired cases with the factory primer from a bunch of pulled AE rounds. OAL set at 1.59". Used Ramshot Silhouette. Had no issues with any of the loads. All primers looked good, and felt great when shooting. I plan to test higher.

5.5gr avg 2081fps, ES=58.34, SD=24.10
5.6gr avg 2093fps, ES=57.14, SD=23.84
5.7gr avg 2095fps, ES=122.0, SD=44.73/ had one velocity low which threw off set
5.8gr avg 2124fps, ES=55.63, SD=20.29
5.9gr avg 2151fps, ES=104.4, SD=45.77/ had one velocity high which threw off set
6.0gr avg 2158fps, ES=74.40, SD=29.46/ had one velocity low which threw off set

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 28 Dec 2013, 23:14

For the 5.56 guys, hitting 34XX in my 16" barrel, and 2800 fps in my 10.25" barrel.. Loader was a little off on the #s, but better safe than sorry. I was only able to take 20 ish yard shots iron sights today, but accuracy was decent. Maybe 2 MOA but it was not slow fire

Good Clean .22 cal holes

Going to see what they do or don't do to steel plates and or water jugs

NYPD3765 · Post by **NYPD3765** » 31 Dec 2013, 14:55

Any load data for the 190 bullet and true blue? I was going to try 6.3 grains than work up 1 grain at a time and check for pressure signs.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 31 Dec 2013, 16:18

NYPD3765 wrote:Any load data for the 190 bullet and true blue? I was going to try 6.3 grains than work up 1 grain at a time and check for pressure signs.

Do NOT work up a load 1 grain at a time with the 5.7x28mm, you will go kaboom!
Increase loads at .1 (1/10th) grain increments when developing loads with this caliber.

That said, grimmond's post back in October stated that he tested True Blue with 6.3gr and that 6.5 was beyond max.

I don't know what it is but my max loads are consistently less than what other people post. I tried one user's "max load" & the first shot blew out my primer - to me, this is well over max. Therefore, now I always start at least .5gr below the posted max. I am just saying this to emphasize that you need to be careful when using other people's load data - accuracy in the scales, personal loading habits, attention to detail, even a different primer may be the difference between a bang & kaboom when working near the max.

I'd recommend you start testing at 6.0gr (or less) of True Blue - load up 5-10 rounds, then another 5-10 at 6.1gr, and so on... You get the idea.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 31 Dec 2013, 16:59

NYPD3765 wrote:Any load data for the 190 bullet and true blue? I was going to try 6.3 grains than work up 1 grain at a time and check for pressure signs.

What ever you do, do not start at 6.3gr and work up. Do not even start at my 6.3gr. As said by Rapier everybody's loads will always be slightly different. I started at 5.5gr and worked it up .1gr shooting 10 rounds in every set. Also I am using a custom barrel/spring combo from EA.

NYPD3765 · Post by **NYPD3765** » 01 Jan 2014, 08:53

I typed wrong, I meant .1 grains at a time. But I will start @ 5.5 and work up. At least now I have a good starting point, and some background on max and near max. Thanks.

NYPD3765 · Post by **NYPD3765** » 05 Jan 2014, 10:11

I tested the ss190 loads I have been developing. I used once shot brass, true blue powder, CCI 400 small rifle primers. Loaded 5 each @ start: 5.5-6.3 increased by.1. The 5.5-5.7 felt weak, the 5.8 5.9 were fine, no signs of over pressure, at 6.0 started flattening the primers a bit. by 6.2 started to see a little gold ring around two of the necks. 6.3 primers a little flatter, but I've seen worse. all 5 had rings, and the rings were more pronounced. I compared this brass to my other once shot factory ss190 brass, and it seems the primers were better on my 6.0 loads, and the ring was more pronounced on the factory load than on my 6.2 loads, more like my 6.3 loads.. I will probably be happy with the 5.9 - 6.0 grains if I want to reload the brass. I don't feel the need to push this bullet any further.

NYPD3765 · Post by **NYPD3765** » 10 Jan 2014, 11:52

I left out the OAL, I made them 1.590 , Had no loading of feeding issues with the magazines, nor chambering issues with the pistol.

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » 11 Jan 2014, 09:43

Do you have a chrony? I'd say your results look similar to mine, but I'd have to see velocity to be sure.

NYPD3765 · Post by **NYPD3765** » 11 Jan 2014, 19:24

No Chrony that day , but I will chrony the same loads from 6.0-6.3 with true blue and CCI 400s. I gingerly popped out the primers on the previous loads, and they miked out just fine, no mushrooming. Like I said I would be happy with the 5.9-6.0 loads but after checking the cases and pulling the primers, at 70 degrees the 6.1-6.3 loads don't show any signs of over pressure in my stock FN-57. I'm sure temperature , different scales, and loading practices will have different results. I would advise working up to my maximums.

Bazzer69 · Post by **Bazzer69** » 28 Apr 2015, 21:50

Can anyone suggest a starting point for SS190, my available powders are Power Pistol, Bullseye and Unique. No True Blue I'm afraid. It's legal for rifle use here in California. Thanks.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 28 Apr 2015, 22:45

TB is legal or illegal? (Not sure if that's a typo)

Kommiefornia has specific powders which are legal? How do you put up with that much government?

I don't get it. How can they make specific powders legal/illegal & yet still allow AP ammo?

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » 29 Apr 2015, 04:07

Power Pistol, 53gr Sierra, 3.8 to 4.8 grains

Unique, 40gr Berger, 3.5 to 4.3 grains

Those are the closest I could find to a 32 grain using two of your three powders, all standard liability and safety statements apply.

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