Tungsten cored bullets

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 09 Feb 2015, 09:07

So me and my brother and dad went out to a spokane valley shooting range and when I started shooting my five seven the range master came up and asked "hey is that a FN FIVE SEVEN". I replied yes it is, he said you know the military has a 45 grain tungsten cored bullet they use. I said no they don't they have the ss190, L191, ss198 etc. He assured himself that he was right and I was right. So I asked him do you own a FSN? Do you reload the 5.7x28mm? Do you research the caliber and the handgun? He says well no I just now it is a tungsten core it even has a black tip on it. I just started laughing and said bro that's the ss190 31 grain FMJ aluminum core and steel sa106 mild steel core buddy. So I wanted to make sure there is not a 45 grain tungsten cored bullet that FN makes now for the military, can anyone chime in? I have tried googling it and can not find anything at all about a 45 grain tungsten cored bullet. I think he is just an idiot or very ignorant.

Weshowe · Post by **Weshowe** » 09 Feb 2015, 10:26

bruteandbear,

Think your right. I haven't heard of a tungsten core penetrator round, let alone a 45 grainer!

Wes

Post by **Rapier1772** » 09 Feb 2015, 10:49

I know Barnes has tungsten cored bullets but not in this caliber, the smallest on their website is for the .270

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 09 Feb 2015, 10:50

People who work in gun shops/ranges ALWAYS know what they're talking about. Why would you even question it?

I was in a shop in Daytona when I witnessed the guy behind the counter, who was trying to sell a used FsN, explain that it's called a cop-killer gun because "you could line up 5 people and the (unspecified) round would easily go through all 5."

So we got that goin' for us...

Post by **Rapier1772** » 09 Feb 2015, 13:29

jgreenberg01 wrote:People who work in gun shops/ranges ALWAYS know what they're talking about. Why would you even question it?
I was in a shop in Daytona when I witnessed the guy behind the counter, who was trying to sell a used FsN, explain that it's called a cop-killer gun because "you could line up 5 people and the (unspecified) round would easily go through all 5."
So we got that goin' for us...

That's nothing. We saw Indiana Jones do that with a Luger 9mm in The Last Crusade.

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 09 Feb 2015, 14:26

jgreenberg01 wrote:People who work in gun shops/ranges ALWAYS know what they're talking about. Why would you even question it?

I was in a shop in Daytona when I witnessed the guy behind the counter, who was trying to sell a used FsN, explain that it's called a cop-killer gun because "you could line up 5 people and the (unspecified) round would easily go through all 5."

So we got that goin' for us...

Hahaha I just don't get why they can't just be honest and say Hey man I don't know to much about the platform instead of trying to BS a guy who eats, sleeps and breathes Five Seven.

Post by **blueorison** » 09 Feb 2015, 15:24

Gun owners are just people who own guns, sir.

If you enjoy firearms, and don't want to meet overly stupid people, avoid 1. Public gun ranges 2. Gun shops 3. Gun shows

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 09 Feb 2015, 22:11

as already mentioned no 45gr tungsten core factory round I'm aware of

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 10 Feb 2015, 07:05

Rapier1772 wrote:
jgreenberg01 wrote:People who work in gun shops/ranges ALWAYS know what they're talking about. Why would you even question it?
I was in a shop in Daytona when I witnessed the guy behind the counter, who was trying to sell a used FsN, explain that it's called a cop-killer gun because "you could line up 5 people and the (unspecified) round would easily go through all 5."
So we got that goin' for us...
That's nothing. We saw Indiana Jones do that with a Luger 9mm in The Last Crusade.

Which is exactly why I am stocking up on refrigerators for all my loved ones.

Between that, my FsN with 45gr tungsten core (and T.I.T.S.N.A.S.S.) rounds, I'm gonna be the cockroach on the block.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 10 Feb 2015, 07:13

Just make sure the refrigerator is lead lined.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 10 Feb 2015, 07:32

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 10 Feb 2015, 09:19

jgreenberg01 wrote:
Rapier1772 wrote:
jgreenberg01 wrote:People who work in gun shops/ranges ALWAYS know what they're talking about. Why would you even question it?
I was in a shop in Daytona when I witnessed the guy behind the counter, who was trying to sell a used FsN, explain that it's called a cop-killer gun because "you could line up 5 people and the (unspecified) round would easily go through all 5."
So we got that goin' for us...
That's nothing. We saw Indiana Jones do that with a Luger 9mm in The Last Crusade.
Which is exactly why I am stocking up on refrigerators for all my loved ones.

Between that, my FsN with 45gr tungsten core (and T.I.T.S.N.A.S.S.) rounds, I'm gonna be the cockroach on the block.

hahahaha just a bunch of BS. I know there is no such thing as tungsten cored 5.7 rounds especially not in 45 grain lol.

Post by **panzermk2** » 10 Feb 2015, 09:56

bruteandbear1 wrote: hahahaha just a bunch of BS. I know there is no such thing as tungsten cored 5.7 rounds especially not in 45 grain lol.

Really? You sure about that?

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 10 Feb 2015, 10:18

panzermk2 wrote:
bruteandbear1 wrote: hahahaha just a bunch of BS. I know there is no such thing as tungsten cored 5.7 rounds especially not in 45 grain lol.

Really? You sure about that?

If there was a 45 grain tungsten cored bullet for the 5.7x28mm weapon that the military uses it would be listed with the other bullets like the ss190, L191, ss198 etc. Even if it was not listed it would have made its way on this forum. So its safe to say FNH does not make a 45 grain tungsten cored bullet fir the military.
I am not talking about a mom and pop shop. I am talking about a Commercially made 45 grain tungsten cored bullet for the military.

Post by **panzermk2** » 10 Feb 2015, 11:20

LOL it would be listed with SAM if there was.

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 10 Feb 2015, 11:23

:agree:

Post by **panzermk2** » 10 Feb 2015, 12:18

Even if it was made by a Mom and Pop.

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 10 Feb 2015, 14:46

I think it would simply cost to much to produce for what it is. That is something You could look at Jay for LEO/MIL.

Post by **panzermk2** » 10 Feb 2015, 15:34

bruteandbear1 wrote:I think it would simply cost to much to produce for what it is. That is something You could look at Jay for LEO/MIL.

Already have and it's pretty cheap to make. The paperwork though. Type 10 FFL costs to much money.

jckilla · Post by **jckilla** » 11 Feb 2015, 03:19

Ha, you guys forgot the ELP 40 grain Tungsten HSS Stinger! http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12890843#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course, I think it's a joke, so anyone who didn't catch the sarcasm immediately, my apologies. We all know the backstory of ELP & Synergy Business Development.

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 11 Feb 2015, 11:41

I don't know if any manufactures make any tungsten cored bullets in 22 caliber, for such a small caliber and cost effectiveness the standard sa106 steel grade seems to be the best armor piercer economacally.

I am certain somewhere along the line it has been brought up and probably researched and maybe there have been some developed but like stated above economically it just does not make sense to many cons and not enough pros.

Post by **panzermk2** » 11 Feb 2015, 11:47

They are actually very easy to make.

Also not that expensive other then all the regulatory BS.

Researched it and came up with a few different ways over the years.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 11 Feb 2015, 12:05

I came across the website for that custom 5.7x28 ammo. The stuff is priced per round! A bit to rich for my blood!!

http://collectibleammunition.com/catego ... at=57-x-28" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... projectile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This round is 12.00

Jay....I do hope your ammo is a bit cheaper!

Post by **Rapier1772** » 11 Feb 2015, 12:16

They're also selling EA Tridents for $20 per round :laugh:

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 11 Feb 2015, 12:23

Rapier1772 wrote:They're also selling EA Tridents for $20 per round :laugh:

Dayum. So, hypothetically speaking, if I had a box of S5 rounds... by their #s, it would go for... a lot.

Hypothetically.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 11 Feb 2015, 12:37

Rapier1772 wrote:They're also selling EA Tridents for $20 per round :laugh:

Jay...will you have something similar to?:
http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... projectile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or
http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... projectile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or
http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... projectile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or
http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... ary-fnb-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BadMrFrosty · Post by **BadMrFrosty** » 11 Feb 2015, 12:51

If the FUBAR incendiary rounds are the ones from Clarks Custom Cartridge they use 1x fired brass.

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 11 Feb 2015, 13:11

ewetstone wrote:I came across the website for that custom 5.7x28 ammo. The stuff is priced per round! A bit to rich for my blood!!

http://collectibleammunition.com/catego ... at=57-x-28" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... projectile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This round is 12.00

Jay....I do hope your ammo is a bit cheaper!

See this is exactly what I was talking about!! Economically it makes no sense no one would be able to afford it.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 11 Feb 2015, 13:33

bruteandbear1 wrote:
ewetstone wrote:I came across the website for that custom 5.7x28 ammo. The stuff is priced per round! A bit to rich for my blood!!

http://collectibleammunition.com/catego ... at=57-x-28" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... projectile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This round is 12.00

Jay....I do hope your ammo is a bit cheaper!
See this is exactly what I was talking about!! Economically it makes no sense no one would be able to afford it.

You would not believe what people are willing to pay for a box of 50 of the original FN SS190.

I have seen bids over 500.00 and for a box of the L191 over 700.00.

jckilla · Post by **jckilla** » 11 Feb 2015, 13:41

Nobody even responded regarding the ELP 5.7 ammo. It's on collector sites. Just thought the whole Tungsten core and the other rounds that have liquid silver in them are nuts. They are advertising a CLASS 3 round for the 5.7 supposedly developed for " the greatest possible immediate impact to creatures with high tolerance nervous systems like the crocodile " - these rounds are insane if they exist - http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12890843#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stitches1974 · Post by **Stitches1974** » 11 Feb 2015, 13:42

ewetstone wrote:I came across the website for that custom 5.7x28 ammo. The stuff is priced per round! A bit to rich for my blood!!

http://collectibleammunition.com/catego ... at=57-x-28" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... projectile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This round is 12.00

Jay....I do hope your ammo is a bit cheaper!

Hopefully you do realize that site is for folks who want to add ammo to a collection and not buy a bunch of it to shoot.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 11 Feb 2015, 13:42

jckilla wrote:Nobody even responded regarding the ELP 5.7 ammo. It's on collector sites. Just thought the whole Tungsten core and the other rounds that have liquid silver in them are nuts. They are advertising a CLASS 3 round for the 5.7 supposedly developed for " the greatest possible immediate impact to creatures with high tolerance nervous systems like the crocodile " - these rounds are insane if they exist - http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12890843#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The link I posted above is that ammo.

I will post it again.
http://collectibleammunition.com/produc ... projectile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can buy all you like at 12.00/round. :laugh:

Post by **panzermk2** » 11 Feb 2015, 14:11

I think he makes all the crap in his basement and then sells them.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 11 Feb 2015, 14:17

panzermk2 wrote:I think he makes all the crap in his basement and then sells them.

Does it really cost that much to make some of what he is making or is he just trying to capitalize on some peoples quest for exotic 5.7.

Post by **panzermk2** » 11 Feb 2015, 14:26

No not really.

Running a 5 cent drill bit through bullet is cheap.

I can buy dirt cheap copper cups drop in tungsten rod sections and form with one die in one movement into a bullet.

I can also take those same cups and drop in aluminum rod sections and create my own version of the S4 bullet.
Which I have and plan on doing more of once my brass project is out of the way.

If the creator knew how to actually manufacture bullets they wouldn't be making all the silly crap with drill bits.

Post by **panzermk2** » 11 Feb 2015, 14:26

Although I should contact him and see if he wants to buy some very special EA rounds.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 11 Feb 2015, 14:31

panzermk2 wrote:Although I should contact him and see if he wants to buy some very special EA rounds.

Umm...I would like to buy some very special EA rounds!!

I have been checking your website daily.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 11 Feb 2015, 15:50

Could be wrong but I think he meant "very special" in a sarcastic way.

If it were me, I would make these very special cartridges & they would be totally obscure, make wild claims, & sell them for a huge mark up.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 11 Feb 2015, 16:00

Rapier1772 wrote:Could be wrong but I think he meant "very special" in a sarcastic way.

If it were me, I would make these very special cartridges & they would be totally obscure, make wild claims, & sell them for a huge mark up.

Right...missed that bit of sarcasm. :laugh:

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 11 Feb 2015, 21:09

I guess it's hard to tell since he's come up with so many of them, and is selling them at a premium, but has anyone seriously shot any of this stuff?

Well, then there's this.

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **panzermk2** » 11 Feb 2015, 21:29

Those guys are good. Not much about ammo they don't know about.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 11 Feb 2015, 21:36

panzermk2 wrote:Those guys are good. Not much about ammo they don't know about.

Are you being serious? You would buy from them?

On a side note Jay....would you have any 10mm auto self defense rounds?

Post by **panzermk2** » 12 Feb 2015, 01:19

ewetstone wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:Those guys are good. Not much about ammo they don't know about.
Are you being serious? You would buy from them?

On a side note Jay....would you have any 10mm auto self defense rounds?

OH Jeeze, the collectors forum. They where the first to spot my ripped off bullet being sold by someone else. I belong to the IAA

I will try and get a run of 10mm out soon

ShootingSight · Post by **ShootingSight** » 15 Feb 2015, 07:46

I looked at making tungsten cored bullets a few years back for competitive shooting, but the cost was high, like $4 per bullet, plus it is not easy to work tungsten.

Stuff does not machine easily, and the melt point is high enough that it does not cast well. The way most do it is to take tungsten powder and press it, sometimes with a binder. Problem is that there are microvoids between the particles, so while the density of tungsten is very high, the average density of a powdered tungsten is enough lower that if you are more dense than lead, it isn't by much.

Post by **panzermk2** » 15 Feb 2015, 10:11

Get free machining tungsten, what do you think I make my PS90 rate reducers from?

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 16 Feb 2015, 16:16

ShootingSight wrote:I looked at making tungsten cored bullets a few years back for competitive shooting, but the cost was high, like $4 per bullet, plus it is not easy to work tungsten.

Stuff does not machine easily, and the melt point is high enough that it does not cast well. The way most do it is to take tungsten powder and press it, sometimes with a binder. Problem is that there are microvoids between the particles, so while the density of tungsten is very high, the average density of a powdered tungsten is enough lower that if you are more dense than lead, it isn't by much.

Yes SIR that exactly what I said It is just not economical. It is not easy to work with and for the 5.7x28mm the steel penetrators in the ss190 does the job fine while still being cheap to manufacture.

fntech1 · Post by **fntech1** » 18 Feb 2015, 17:19

http://s921.photobucket.com/user/vamesq ... t=3&page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **panzermk2** » 18 Feb 2015, 20:39

Soft steel dumpster? 22lr would go through that.

PursuitSS · Post by **PursuitSS** » 18 Feb 2015, 20:45

The guy advertising the ELP ammo is apparently a full blown nut job, or extremely sarcastic.

A 5.7x28 round with a 9 gr projectile traveling 4,000 fps and less than a 2" drop at 500 yards :lmao:

The round wouldn't even travel 500 yards.

Post by **panzermk2** » 18 Feb 2015, 22:21

OH it would travel, once. The min weight to cycle the action on a FsN with factory spring is about 20gr.

He is plugging numbers into Point Blank software.

fntech1 · Post by **fntech1** » 19 Feb 2015, 00:10

22lr. penetrating soft steel? Please show us a video of the 22lr steel (dumpster) penetration qualities you are referring to. Thanks.

Post by **panzermk2** » 19 Feb 2015, 12:45

That dumpster is the over sized type designed for paper and light weight bulky garbage.

Just after rural road signs if you find them in BFE they will be filled with holes. I never bothered to take a pic because, well why? Who has not seen a 55gal drum filled with holes and though damn I need a pic of that?

fntech1 · Post by **fntech1** » 19 Feb 2015, 14:28

Ok., Jay. How about you PM me an address to send you a sample, fair? Then, you can video-report the results here, online. Eat it, if you must. Nobody, knows everything. A whole lot of S...t going on out here, brother..

Post by **panzermk2** » 19 Feb 2015, 14:35

Fine I have some AR500 plates here for testing.

Post by **panzermk2** » 19 Feb 2015, 14:42

Although if he is making tungsten bullets he better have a type 10FFL.

fntech1 · Post by **fntech1** » 19 Feb 2015, 14:46

Great. I will send a sample to you.

PS: I do not make or manufacture ammunition.

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 21 Feb 2015, 16:15

So are one of you guys making a tungsten cored prototype round for the FSN?

Post by **panzermk2** » 21 Feb 2015, 23:38

LOL no type 10FFL costs way to much unless you have some massive government contract. Even then there are other options out there that aren't on the list.

Now making them on the side, selling them,without an FFL AND being 5.7x28mm, a round the ATF watches with a micro scope, will only end poorly when the come after you.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 22 Feb 2015, 01:04

Can you make your own without getting hassled?

Post by **panzermk2** » 22 Feb 2015, 15:40

Nope.

A private citizen can own, shoot, sell and buy AP ammo.

Manufacturing is where the sh!t storm of laws and regulations come at you in a big way.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 22 Feb 2015, 16:46

Bummer. But no matter, I no longer have access to a machine shop anyway

Good to know though, thanks

Post by **panzermk2** » 22 Feb 2015, 16:52

Much better material for the job is out there and not on the list. At best even with machinable tungsten all you could end up with is a crude core with limited performance.

You have to think outside of the box.

My T6 rounds act like FMJ's while penetrating yet do massive tissue damage.

Did you know you can get Aluminum, Lithium and, not quartz but a crystal type that I can't remember just now, alloys that maintain the weight and density of the host Aluminum yet are almost as hard as Tungsten?

Post by **panzermk2** » 22 Feb 2015, 16:56

And the sh!t I am playing around with MIM and ceramics.

Oh just you wait, in about a year when I have money from my brass to pay for the R&D.

Ceramic cored bullets, or MIM cores in copper jackets.

With MIM you can mix up all sorts of fun alloys for light weight, yet very hard.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 22 Feb 2015, 18:36

I really should leave the bullet building to the pros anyway. But you did pique my interest in the ceramic thing, I've had a couple of ideas on that for a while but lack the knowledge to do anything about it yet.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 22 Feb 2015, 20:54

panzermk2 wrote:Much better material for the job is out there and not on the list. At best even with machinable tungsten all you could end up with is a crude core with limited performance.

You have to think outside of the box.

My T6 rounds act like FMJ's while penetrating yet do massive tissue damage.

Did you know you can get Aluminum, Lithium and, not quartz but a crystal type that I can't remember just now, alloys that maintain the weight and density of the host Aluminum yet are almost as hard as Tungsten?

Are you thinking of Sapphire? Very hard mineral...It has a Mohs scale hardness of: 9.0 which is in the mineral family corundum, an aluminium oxide (α-Al2O3) witht race amounts of elements such as iron, titanium, chromium and copper.

My other expensive hobby is collecting gemstones.

Have there ever been any bullets constructed from any type of mineral crystals?? Sapphire is the third hardest mineral behind Moissanite at 9.5 and then of course diamonds at 10. They also seem to make watches tick better when used as bearings due to low and predictable friction, good temperature stability, and the ability to operate without lubrication and in corrosive environments. They are known for their low static friction and highly consistent dynamic friction.

Post by **panzermk2** » 22 Feb 2015, 21:30

I have to look it up. I found out about when visiting a metals plant that only manufactures alloys for the areospace industeries.

ewetstone · Post by **ewetstone** » 22 Feb 2015, 21:40

panzermk2 wrote:I have to look it up. I found out about when visiting a metals plant that only manufactures alloys for the areospace industeries.

I don't suppose you would get very good expansion with a hard crystal tip on a bullet but it might make for a very good penetrating round albeit a little on the pricey side.

Post by **panzermk2** » 22 Feb 2015, 21:46

I don't get expansion with the T6B ether.

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 24 Feb 2015, 07:19

ewetstone wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:I have to look it up. I found out about when visiting a metals plant that only manufactures alloys for the areospace industeries.
I don't suppose you would get very good expansion with a hard crystal tip on a bullet but it might make for a very good penetrating round albeit a little on the pricey side.

What if you made a hard crystal core with a soft hollow point that explodes upon the proper hydraulic pressure. That way you get penetrating and a good wound cavity for expansion.

Post by **panzermk2** » 26 Feb 2015, 11:36

Just got a sample of bullets and these have been around in the past.

They are cut down 109 and a <profanity> nightmare if you shoot them.

There is a thread in the private section of the forum concerning these bullets back 2008.

This pic is mine, that I posted of back in 2008 and are identical to the bullets I am holding in my hand right now.

Post by **panzermk2** » 26 Feb 2015, 11:44

And by nightmare I mean for your hand and your gun.

fntech1 · Post by **fntech1** » 26 Feb 2015, 12:29

Thanks Jay. I love my pistol, and my hand-fingers even more!

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 26 Feb 2015, 14:47

Is someone selling these?

Post by **panzermk2** » 26 Feb 2015, 14:48

They have in the past.

GONRA · Post by **GONRA** » 27 Feb 2015, 14:59

GONRA sez sometimes you can grab some TUNGSTEN CARBIDE SCRAP
(cemented WC, not tungsten metal)
and grind it with el cheapo Harbor Freight diamond wheel / diamond grinding points / electric die grinder
to make small drills, mills, etc. on yer lathe.
You stalwarts could probably make cemented WC BULLET CORES too?
(For rotary cutting tools, you need a home made "eccentric spindle indexer"
to grind radial clearances on more than one flute cutters.)

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 03 Mar 2015, 09:01

panzermk2 wrote:Just got a sample of bullets and these have been around in the past.

They are cut down 109 and a <profanity> nightmare if you shoot them.

There is a thread in the private section of the forum concerning these bullets back 2008.

This pic is mine, that I posted of back in 2008 and are identical to the bullets I am holding in my hand right now.

Jay are these Tungsten cored?

Post by **panzermk2** » 03 Mar 2015, 12:09

They are standard cut down military surplus SS109 with whatever type of steel core was used.

Pretty irrelevant unless you want to blow your hand off.

bruteandbear1 · Post by **bruteandbear1** » 04 Mar 2015, 15:18

Explain why you would blow your hand off?

CPTKILLER · Post by **CPTKILLER** » 04 Mar 2015, 18:47

Elite Ammunition has done a credible job on metal selection for bullets. This is not a trivial exercise.

I've worked with metallurgy in engineering for decades and what panzermk2 is not trivial. The real measure is performance and the ammunition seems to work well.

My only concern is production capacity right now.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 04 Mar 2015, 20:14

The bullet is not solid construction, that's why Jay is concerned..

Who is online