**Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

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The Reca
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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by The Reca » 01 Sep 2012, 08:41

jgreenberg01 wrote:Spent the last night cooking 3 20lb blocks of ballistic gelatin. Now they sit in the firdge for 3 days.

By the way, for anyone who has never made gel blocks, while they're cooking, they smell like a$$...
I have never mad a gel block but would be interested in doing so. I guess I will do a youtube search on how to do it. Does the smell eventually go away or do you have to scrub the heck out of the oven afterwards? I will look it up now and hopefully some of my questions will get answered.

*Edit*
Ok so I guess they don't even go in the oven.. Seems like a very long process though. Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing the video(s).
Last edited by The Reca on 01 Sep 2012, 09:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by jgreenberg01 » 01 Sep 2012, 08:57

If you do it right, there's nothing to scrub (yeah, yeah TWSS). The smell mostly dissipates by the next day. Mostly. This will answer your how-to questions:

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The Reca
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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by The Reca » 01 Sep 2012, 09:00

Thanks Jgreen

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by ShockedNKansas » 01 Sep 2012, 09:21

The Reca wrote:
jgreenberg01 wrote:Spent the last night cooking 3 20lb blocks of ballistic gelatin. Now they sit in the firdge for 3 days.

By the way, for anyone who has never made gel blocks, while they're cooking, they smell like a$$...
I have never mad a gel block but would be interested in doing so. I guess I will do a youtube search on how to do it. Does the smell eventually go away or do you have to scrub the heck out of the oven afterwards? I will look it up now and hopefully some of my questions will get answered.

*Edit*
Ok so I guess they don't even go in the oven.. Seems like a very long process though. Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing the video(s).
http://ballistekgel.com/

:D :D :D

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by panzermk2 » 01 Sep 2012, 09:42

jgreenberg01 wrote:Spent the last night cooking 3 20lb blocks of ballistic gelatin. Now they sit in the firdge for 3 days.

By the way, for anyone who has never made gel blocks, while they're cooking, they smell like a$$...

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by Valorius » 04 Sep 2012, 17:47

I'm interested in seeing the T6 gel tests. I already know what it'll do to a IIIA.

If possible you should test it with a stab or 'trauma' plate installed. Cause against a IIIA T6 is just going to zip through like it's not there.

S4M does too. 49 layers of kevlar and TWO ballistically rated stab backers in my test!

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by Buffman » 04 Sep 2012, 19:43

I don't know if I should post my test with IIIA, as the rear two panels I thought i placed them on good sections and the bullets came within 1/2" of another previous shot. It went through one panel with ease.

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by Valorius » 05 Sep 2012, 11:48

1/2" is plenty far enough away that it won't have any effect for such a small pointed projectile.

Post it up! :)

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by jgreenberg01 » 05 Sep 2012, 13:32

Valorius wrote:1/2" is plenty far enough away that it won't have any effect for such a small pointed projectile.

Post it up! :)
Not quite. According to the NIJ this is what they require for testing purposes:
7.6.2 Minimum Shot-to-Shot Distance

The minimum shot-to-shot distance shall be 51 mm (2.0 in).
This distance may be decreased at the request of the armor manufacturer.
For the original reference, go to the bottom of page 40 of this link.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's if you want to follow their protocols anyway.
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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by Valorius » 05 Sep 2012, 14:20

Are we following NIJ protocols? I don't think so...i haven't seen any data about the temp and calibration of the backing clay in any of these tests.

Based on my own personal test results if you shot two 9mm bullets on a IIIA 1/2" apart the vest would stop them both. When it comes to a T6 i don't think it would matter because the vest is not going to stop a T6 regardless.

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by jgreenberg01 » 05 Sep 2012, 15:09

Valorius wrote:Are we following NIJ protocols? I don't think so...i haven't seen any data about the temp and calibration of the backing clay in any of these tests.

Based on my own personal test results if you shot two 9mm bullets on a IIIA 1/2" apart the vest would stop them both. When it comes to a T6 i don't think it would matter because the vest is not going to stop a T6 regardless.
No, not at all. I brought it up for informational purposes only.

I found that when having "discussions" with the 5.7x28 naysayers, it's helpful to know where they are coming from, especially the FBI protocol fan bois. Not that it really matters because we can't win - they have their minds made up already and most have never even handled, much less fired the platform. It does not hurt to know where people like that are coming from though.

My video tests don't follow protocol to the T, but I do go to great pains to properly calibrate the gelatin blocks as per FBI protocol. Fan bois aside, it at the very least allows us to use a consistent medium to compare bullet performance. Is it the be-all, end-all? Certainly not. As Jay points out: we're not going to be shooting at gelatin bad guys - they will have bone, ligament, tendon, fat and air pockets. Again, it's just a consistency thing and you really need that to make fair comparisons.
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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by Valorius » 06 Sep 2012, 04:41

I hear ya.

But i don't think the 1/2" thing matters for the purposes of Buffman's tests....he should post the video. :)

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Re: **Buffman's Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Post by jgreenberg01 » 06 Sep 2012, 04:47

I agree. It doesn't hurt to have additional data, the more we have, the more informed decisions can be made.
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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by ShockedNKansas » 06 Sep 2012, 13:20

Okay, I added Greenberg's two BA videos to the list.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Buffman » 06 Sep 2012, 14:26

IIIA vs T6:


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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by ShockedNKansas » 06 Sep 2012, 15:06

Okay, added yours and Jeff's additional S4M through 2 layers test. This sticky is ready for Congress... lol :facepalm:

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 06 Sep 2012, 15:15

If you wish to add any of mine in this thread to the original sticky feel free. If nothing else, i'd add the SS195LF Blue box vs IIIA test. No one else has a video of that on here but me i think.

I was also quite surprised at the result of the test.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by ShockedNKansas » 06 Sep 2012, 16:35

Valorius wrote:If you wish to add any of mine in this thread to the original sticky feel free. If nothing else, i'd add the SS195LF Blue box vs IIIA test. No one else has a video of that on here but me i think.

I was also quite surprised at the result of the test.
Are your videos edited down a bit? Last I remember it was just running video with everything on it?

ETA: You know what? I don't think we should highlight your video of SS195 beating IIIa. I don't know if it was because of your threaded muzzle, or a weak vest, but announcing to the world that FN's widely available SS195 (target ammo) beats IIIa is not wise -- even if it's true, which it shouldn't be. That's a good way to see another ammo shortage. :(

I'll be honest with you, it might even be a good idea to take that video down. Because if you did get a weak vest, and SS195 will not penetrate a legit IIIa vest, then you are doing the work of the Brady Bunch advertising FN rounds that penetrate IIIa when they don't.

I know you tested that vest against other rounds, and I know it stopped them, but SS195 has been tested by numerous people against IIIa and it never penetrated. SS195 is pretty much known by all not to be able to beat IIIa. Only your tests show it differently. :(

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 07 Sep 2012, 04:41

Edited down? Why don't you watch them and see for yourself? ;)

The tests I did proved that Safariland IIIA vest was anything but weak. If anything, it's a top tier vest. The ballistic stab panels in that vest stopped max pressure 10mm 180gr gold dots by themselves.

This same vest stopped Elite Pro I, Elite Pro II, SS197SR, 9mm HST, Gold Dot 9mm+P+, 10mm max pressure Gold Dot, .45 acp FMJ and JHP, .500 magnum 350gr JHP, and 12ga 3" magnum solid copper sabot slugs. I was tremendously impressed with the performance of the safariland vest i tested.

I am not taking the video down. SS195LF from a threaded barrel defeats even a top end IIIA vest when fired from a threaded FsN. (considering that buffman clocked SS195LF at over 2000fps it should probably penetrate even without the threading, but with the extra 100+fps or so from the threading...you're at or above SS198 velocity)

It is what it is, the video is staying up.

My tests also revealed at least one 9mm+P+ round (Buffalo Bore 115gr+P+ Montana Gold MHP) that will defeat a IIIA, so there's really nothing special about the fact that 5.7mm will do it too.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by ShockedNKansas » 07 Sep 2012, 10:46

Valorius wrote:Edited down? Why don't you watch them and see for yourself? ;)

The tests I did proved that Safariland IIIA vest was anything but weak. If anything, it's a top tier vest. The ballistic stab panels in that vest stopped max pressure 10mm 180gr gold dots by themselves.

This same vest stopped Elite Pro I, Elite Pro II, SS197SR, 9mm HST, Gold Dot 9mm+P+, 10mm max pressure Gold Dot, .45 acp FMJ and JHP, .500 magnum 350gr JHP, and 12ga 3" magnum solid copper sabot slugs. I was tremendously impressed with the performance of the safariland vest i tested.

I am not taking the video down. SS195LF from a threaded barrel defeats even a top end IIIA vest when fired from a threaded FsN. (considering that buffman clocked SS195LF at over 2000fps it should probably penetrate even without the threading, but with the extra 100+fps or so from the threading...you're at or above SS198 velocity)

It is what it is, the video is staying up.

My tests also revealed at least one 9mm+P+ round (Buffalo Bore 115gr+P+ Montana Gold MHP) that will defeat a IIIA, so there's really nothing special about the fact that 5.7mm will do it too.
It was just a suggestion.

There is a huge difference between a readily available factory round penetrating IIIa and this one boutique (probably over-pressured) Buffalo Bore round (which you said was discontinued). If the reality is, that SS195 will penetrate IIIa, and the info becomes widely known, there will be ammo changesd coming from FN -- again. The thing is, they already dumbed down their offerings because of the last outcry. Don't you think that FN knows whether or not their factory rounds penetrate IIIa?

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