**Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrage**

Discuss 5.7x28mm factory ammunition
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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 07 Sep 2012, 13:50

What we need to see now is a test of Elite Varminter vs a IIIA vest, and some chrono tests.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by panzermk2 » 07 Sep 2012, 13:54

Valorius wrote:What we need to see now is a test of Elite Varminter vs a IIIA vest, and some chrono tests.

Already been done. The vest lost.
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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 07 Sep 2012, 13:57

Anyone could load the Montana Gold 115gr match HP to 1400fps from a 9mm G17, building up the load slowly, and it will penetrate a IIIA.

Several reloading catalogs show a listing in .357 sig for a 115gr JHP at 1500fps. So it would be easy to duplicate the ballistics of the 9mm+P+ Buffalo Bore round (which yes, is obviously big time over pressure). God even knows how fast you could drive a 115gr MG hollowpoint in a .357 magnum. Probably 1700 or 1800fps.

You could also just load 115gr hard cast lead flat nose or SWC ammo to the same velocity and get the same results as well. I expect that these hard cast lead bullets would perform significantly better than standard FMJ, which has a soft lead core, and probably even better than soft core TMJ as well. The hard cast bullets just don't get deformed as much.

Bottom line: 9mm+P+, .357 Sig, and .357 magnum are all capable of defeating IIIA body armor as long as you use the right bullet. Which makes it exactly the same as 5.7mm.
panzermk2 wrote:
Valorius wrote:What we need to see now is a test of Elite Varminter vs a IIIA vest, and some chrono tests.

Already been done. The vest lost.
OK, thanks. Doesn't surprise me.

I'm thinking Varminter might be one of the best SD loads in the market in 5.7mm right now.

No video i'm guessing?

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by panzermk2 » 07 Sep 2012, 14:15

Valorius wrote:A
I'm thinking Varminter might be one of the best SD loads in the market in 5.7mm right now.

No video i'm guessing?
If you do a search going back three years ago on this forum when Pro1 was out of stock and Var1 was in stock I stated that the Var1 barely lost to the Pro1 in SD role. That if some one needed a SD round ASAP that the Var1 is a damn good SD round.

Vid which was made in the last week or so is not in the public section.
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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by blueorison » 07 Sep 2012, 15:39

Valorius wrote:What we need to see now is a test of Elite Varminter vs a IIIA vest, and some chrono tests.
By "we", you really mean "I", right?

I'm not picking on you, but who else really NEEDS to see this test?

And even when the "test" is posted in video form, all that happens is people are never satisfied with the "RIGHT" temperatures, barometric pressure, FPS, chronograph, and basically spout off like they are the experts of their fields.

Tell me I'm wrong.
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Stop relying on others to do the work for you.
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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 07 Sep 2012, 20:48

panzermk2 wrote:If you do a search going back three years ago on this forum when Pro1 was out of stock and Var1 was in stock I stated that the Var1 barely lost to the Pro1 in SD role. That if some one needed a SD round ASAP that the Var1 is a damn good SD round.
I concur.

@Blue, you act as if my videos weren't also criticized. lol...it's the internet. It is what it is.

Cold, thoughtful analysis is not the same as criticism. Please do not be offended.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 10 Sep 2012, 15:31

I have some Fiberglass plate armor in 4 different thicknesses that i'd like to test against T6.

The 9/16" plates i have will actually stop S4M even from a threaded FsN. (not sure on the rating)
1/2" stops Protector I threaded, and SS192 threaded (exceeds ARMY MIL-STD-662F)
3/8" stops Protector II threaded and barely stops SS195LF BB threaded (NIJ IIIA rated)
1/4" stops SS197SR or 9mm+P NATO M882 FMJ (NIJ II rated)

The 9/16" plates are rated to stop .30 carbine FMJ fire from an M1 carbine.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by jgreenberg01 » 10 Sep 2012, 15:41

Looks like you need to buy some T6! :D
0100001101101111011011010110010100100000011000010110111001100100001000000111010001100001011010110110010100100000011010010111010000101110

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 11 Sep 2012, 16:37

Elite S4M vs Safariland IIIA 25 layer vest with ballistic rated stab panels and 1/4" thick stand alone level II fiberglass trauma plate, with Federal 9mm HST control shot.

The video is long and unedited. Skip to the last two minutes if you just want to see the S4M test:



RESULT: Plate defeated, but IIIA vest stopped S4M. (and 9mm)

Off video i later counted how many levels of kevlar were defeated. It looks like the S4M tore 18 layers of Kevlar after defeating the stand alone level II plate. So it's very likely that S4M will probably still defeat a level II vest with a level II stand alone plate.

Other tests i've done against these plates:

S4M vs 9/16" stand alone fiberglass plate (rated to stop .30 carbine rifle fire): No penetration, minimal back face spalling.

S4M vs 1/2" stand alone fiberglass plate (exceeds IIIA protection), penetrates.

SS195LF blue box and SS192 vs 1/2" stand alone fiberglass plate, stopped, minimal back face deformation.

SS195LF blue box and SS192 vs 5/16" fiberglass plate (stand alone level IIIA), penetrates.

SS197SR vs 1/4" fiberglass plate (stand alone level II), stopped.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Buffman » 17 Sep 2012, 05:21

pro IV :

var 1:


9mm as a comparison:


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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 17 Sep 2012, 09:57

Great tests, thanks. I'm surprised the Pro IV penetrated as deeply as it did. The Varmintor is a very promising looking defensive load.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 28 Nov 2012, 16:18

SS198LF LE only loading vs 9/16" plate armor (I said 1/2" in video, but measured post test and it's 9/16"). Shot this up my uncles place out in the sticks of Pa.

First video is a control test with Aguila 40gr .22LR Interceptor @ approx 1550 fps from a 22" rifle (don't laugh, this combo actually comes within 75fps of the velocity of 40gr Fed American Eagle TMJ, and will penetrate 12-15 layers in soft kevlar in my tests), followed by a shot of Buffalo Barnes .380 80gr+P SCHP.



Second video is SS198 from threaded barrel shot into 9/16" plate.



Last video is post shot plate inspection. The round was easily defeated. In fact these plates have in the past stopped Elite S4M as well.



My battery conveniently died in the middle of the test, so my apologies that the video is broken into two parts, and the last part is cut short.

Anyway, this plate gives multi-hit protection from Elite S4M and SS1980 even at point blank range, when fired from a threaded five seven. Pretty darn impressive.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 29 Nov 2012, 06:37

Same day, same gun (threaded barrel FsN), same engagement range (less than 5 feet), same vest. This is probably as accurate of a DIRECT head to head comparison of these rounds as we're ever going to get:

US Armor (manufactured 1997) IIIA vest (25 layers, no stab protection) vs:

SS192 and SS195:



SS198:



Elite S4M:



Given that myself and others have all shot SS192 and SS198 through various IIIA's, and that i have shot SS195 through a Safariland IIIA, it just goes to show you that not all IIIA vests are created equal!

Performance vs my own personal US Armor IIIA work vest:

SS192: 15 layers
SS195: 10 layers
SS198: 20 layers
Elite S4M: Clean penetration

Those penetration figures clearly suggest that SS192 is significantly hotter than blue box 195, despite previous user velocity listings. I REALLY need a chronograph.

This vest dramatically outperformed the Safariland IIIA and Second Chance vest panel i've used in other tests, which is amazing, because the Safariland IIIA performed quite well in it's own right: Stopping Elite Protector I in the 2000fps range and Elite Protector II as fired from my threaded barrel FsN.

I will rest easy wearing this vest in the future, that's for sure!!!

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by panzermk2 » 29 Nov 2012, 10:55

If you look at some of my posts from years ago I stated the Var1 would be a pretty good SD round.
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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Valorius » 29 Nov 2012, 11:02

I agree with that assessment. S4M is still better though IMO...much better penetration. These tests once again demonstrate that it is the be all, end all of 28gr OTM performance and penetration.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Litehiker » 20 Dec 2013, 19:45

I wonder if the added velocity of a PS90 carbine (non-SBR) would make much difference in IIIA penetration.

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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by Buffman » 14 Dec 2014, 17:01

here's SS197SR from the PS90:


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Re: **Buffman (& Greenberg's) Official FsN Body Armor Barrag

Post by panzermk2 » 14 Dec 2014, 18:31

LOL Can I play?

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