Stpuid NFA question

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Nickf150fx4
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Stpuid NFA question

Post by Nickf150fx4 » 13 Mar 2011, 15:49

Sorry guys if this is a stupid question but i'm new to the whole NFA weapon scene. So how does the process work to get title 2 weapons? and where do you even purchase title 2 weapons at?

thanks for your help in advance guys! :thumb:

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Rapier1772
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by Rapier1772 » 13 Mar 2011, 16:36

Which kind are thinking about? That is the first thing to know.

After that, it depends on what you need to do to make it happen. You will need a BATFE form 4 at least. If you need to make mods then you will also probably need a form 1. We need more info to help you.
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by jgreenberg01 » 13 Mar 2011, 16:42

+1 on what Rapier said - what are you trying to buy/build? Also depending on your county, getting a CLEO sign-off may be difficult, and if that's the case you may want to look into an NFA Trust...
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Bones
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by Bones » 13 Mar 2011, 16:44

You need tons of money and a rider on your homeowners insurance policy as well as a few big safes. A couple for the guns and a couple more for ammo :D Your question is really unclear. More specification is really needed. This is who I have purchased 90% of my toys http://historicarms.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; We are in V.A. but they ship all over! http://www.historicarmsclass3.com/Contact_Us.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It looks like the site is under construction
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Nickf150fx4
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Re: Stupid NFA question

Post by Nickf150fx4 » 18 Mar 2011, 17:21

Sorry it took me so long to reply i forgot i even made this thread! I guess my question was a little vague after reading up on it a bit! I would love to get my hands on a P90 eventually :thumb: so that will be my new goal as soon as i get my Five seveN customized to my likings first. Here's a good read on Title 2 weapons i found if anybody else was wanting some info.

Firearms can be divided into two categories in the USA. Title 1 firearms such as handguns, rifles and shotguns; and title 2 weapons like machine guns, silencers, short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles, destructive devices and any other weapons (pen guns, gadget guns). While most people are familiar with title 1 guns that are commonly sold in sporting goods stores, some people are not aware that title 2 weapons can also be owned by anyone who can own a rifle.

Federal and State law summaries are here; http://www.subguns.com/laws/laws.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Written by James Bardwell. This is a very helpful and easy to read summary of gun law in the USA.

In 1934 the National Firearms Act was passed by Congress to strictly regulate the sale of all title 2 weapons. While these weapons were not banned, their manufacture and sale was subject to BATFE authorization and a $200 tax ($5 for transfer of AOW’s). This tax was intended to make the sale and ownership of title 2 weapons undesirable as a Maxim silencer cost about $5 and a new 1927 Thompson machine gun only cost about $150 back in 1934. Title 2 weapons owned before the law passed were required to be registered with the tax paid, destroyed or turned in to the government.

To put this $200 tax into perspective, it is equal to more than $3000 today. Few people wished to pay such an exorbitant tax back then. Today inflation has made it a mere nuisance compared to the price of a machine gun which is about $3000 for a Mac-10 and $15000 for an M-16. To make matters worse, in 1986 new registration of machine guns was prohibited by the Firearm Owners Protection Act. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm...Protection_Act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; With the number of machine guns available to the unlicensed public fixed (or falling), and with demand increasing, the prices have gone up greatly in the last ten years.

To operate a business that deals in the sale, import and manufacture of title 2 firearms requires a license called the federal firearms license (FFL) and the payment of a yearly tax called the special occupational tax (SOT). The SOT class 1 is for importers, class 2 for manufacturers and class 3 for dealers. While many people call machine guns class 3 weapons, they are more properly called title 2 firearms. You can read more about licensing here; http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...3----000-.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

A license is not required to own, buy, sell or make a title 2 firearm; except machine guns which can only be made by a FFL/SOT class 2 manufacturer. To buy a title 2 weapon, the ATF form 4 must be submitted to the ATF along with form 5330.20 attesting to US citizenship, finger print cards, two passport sized photographs and a check or money order for $200. The back of the AF form 4 is required to be signed by your local sheriff or other chief law enforcement officer. If the sheriff will not sign, you can ask a judge or District Attorney in your county to sign the form. If a signature can not be obtained, some people create a living trust or a corporation to own the silencer for them. In these cases the signature, photos and finger prints are not required, but the tax is still required to be paid.

ATF approval is a routine matter and is always granted as long as the forms are filled out correctly. If you make a mistake, the ATF normally delays approval to send a letter back to you explaining how to fix it and make the approval happen in a timely matter. In order to fill out the forms properly, one must be at least 18 years old (21 if transfer from dealer), a US citizen and able to legally own a firearm. It is a crime to lie on the ATF tax stamp applications just as it is to misrepresent yourself on form 4473 when purchasing any other title 1 firearms from a dealer.

While most title 2 firearms are bought trough a licensed dealer, this is not required if the buyer and seller reside in the same state. As long as the buyer presents the approved ATF form 4 to the seller, the transaction is legal. Interstate transfers must go through a licensed dealer.

If a person wants to make any title 2 firearm (except a machine gun) without a license, then the ATF form 1 is submitted in the same manner as above. It is important that parts intended for use on the weapon not be made until you receive the approved ATF form 1 back with the canceled tax stamp. If repairs are required on a form 1 silencer, they can not result in lengthening the silencer tube, changing the bore, or replacing parts. The ATF has told people in the past that wipes (rubbers disks) are allowed to be replaced if the old wipes are destroyed first.

You can order ATF forms by phone, mail or the internet. http://www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They can also be filled in and printed from here; http://www.titleii.com/TitleII.com/Welcome.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Information on some of the legalities of title 2 weapons. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26...0_E_20_53.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some more interesting links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Evading the tax on title 2 firearms can result in fines up to half a million dollars and 5 years in prison. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/7201.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PainKillaX
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by PainKillaX » 20 Mar 2011, 01:23

Unfortunately, if I understand things correctly, you cannot get your hands on a P90, period. They were manufactured post-ban and thus never imported, so there are zero in circulation. Someone correct me if I am wrong please :)

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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by Bones » 20 Mar 2011, 05:21

Yes you can purchase one.

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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by swenk » 21 Mar 2011, 07:41

No, as a civilian you can not buy a P90. But you can, with the correct ATF form and $200, install a short barrel on your PS90 and have virtually the same thing just with that pesky extra little 'S' on the receiver... ;)
In a nutshell:

1. Buy PS90
2. Send form 1 (2 copies front and back, fingerprints, etc etc) and $200, wait a few months for approval
3. After receiving form 1/stamp, have receiver engraved with your info and order SBR barrel
4. Install barrel
5. Enjoy!!

Or if you find one for sale that is already SBR'd, you can buy it on a form 4. It is a lot more cost efficient to buy one in your home state to avoid 2 of the $200 transfer tax for out of state items.

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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by Bones » 21 Mar 2011, 07:54

Yes you can with a demo from the Batfe

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drinksabit
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by drinksabit » 21 Mar 2011, 08:02

swenk wrote:No, as a civilian you can not buy a P90. But you can, with the correct ATF form and $200, install a short barrel on your PS90 and have virtually the same thing just with that pesky extra little 'S' on the receiver... ;)
In a nutshell:

1. Buy PS90
2. Send form 1 (2 copies front and back, fingerprints, etc etc) and $200, wait a few months for approval
3. After receiving form 1/stamp, have receiver engraved with your info and order SBR barrel
4. Install barrel
5. Enjoy!!

Or if you find one for sale that is already SBR'd, you can buy it on a form 4. It is a lot more cost efficient to buy one in your home state to avoid 2 of the $200 transfer tax for out of state items.
Amendment II wrote:A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
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Last edited by drinksabit on 21 Mar 2011, 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

Nickf150fx4
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by Nickf150fx4 » 21 Mar 2011, 20:40

Just putting a the shorter barrel on a ps90 will only make it look the part of a p90. You would have to actually convert a ps90 to a p90...But as we know this has already been brought up here and is a touchy subject on any forum so
I will let it die.

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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by NLVMike » 21 Mar 2011, 21:54

So, I was Mayor of a pretty big city, with a pretty big police dept., and I wanted (want) a P90 in the worst way. A sales rep came and took me out to the range back in about 2003 and demo'd a P90. I put a couple dozen mags through it and was hooked. He wanted me to help replace our special ops MP5's with P90's. I think what he really wanted was to get his hands on our pre-1986 MP5's. Anyway, PD decided against the P90, but they sat me down with the BATFE chief to talk about what I would need to do to own one. Long story short, not worth it. Since it was not made before 1986, there is no such thing as a civilian transferable version. I could have become a dealer and get a post-ban dealer sample like the sales rep had. A lot of money for one gun. Physical store, commercial zoning, safe storage, annual licensing fees, etc. I could have also had the PD buy one, store it in their safe, in their name, and borrow it to shoot. Also not feasible. Since that time, the chief has changed, the armourer retired, and I am not Mayor anymore. They would look at me and say, what gun? I am relegated to the lot of un non-LEO's to just drool.

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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by fatherfoof » 22 Mar 2011, 00:21

Tough situation. Artos went through a similar event.
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by Cyberfly » 22 Mar 2011, 08:02

Artos 'claimed' to have gone through similar events.
Artos also claimed a lot of things. Not even sure Artos was of legal drinking age to be honest...
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by panzermk2wife » 22 Mar 2011, 08:37

fatherfoof wrote:Artos went through a similar event.
:skep:
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swenk
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by swenk » 23 Mar 2011, 18:24

Bones wrote:Yes you can with a demo from the Batfe
Ok, I'm curious. How exactly does a civilian get a demo from the Batfe?

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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by Cyberfly » 24 Mar 2011, 06:33

They don't get the weapon from the BATFE.
In order to have a 'demo' rifle, you have to have an SOT license from the BATFE, then you can purchase the demo rifle from the manufacturer. But again, the requirements to have that SOT license are so strict and expensive that unless you were actually in the business and selling title II weapons to LEO agencies regularly (and a LOT of them) it really isn't worth it just to try to keep a couple of FA weapons.
You would have to be a very wealthy individual to do it just for kicks.
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by swenk » 24 Mar 2011, 07:11

Cyberfly - I was just being a tad sarcastic, and hoping that Bones would explain how someone, as a non FFL or SOT holder, can run out and get demo P90's... lol
Because if we could, we all would. :ponder:

srt-4_jon - edited my terminology for you
Last edited by swenk on 24 Mar 2011, 07:48, edited 1 time in total.

srt-4_jon
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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by srt-4_jon » 24 Mar 2011, 07:42

A ffl isn't a civilian?

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Re: Stpuid NFA question

Post by Rapier1772 » 24 Mar 2011, 09:13

srt-4_jon wrote:A ffl isn't a civilian?
Yes they are a civilian. But there are different classes and types of FFLs & SOTs. Most FFLs cannot sell NFA items, I forget which type allows what but here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
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