Removing the mag "safety"?

Discuss the FN Five-seveN line of pistols and accessories.

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Vudoo
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Vudoo » 14 Apr 2011, 20:31

Hi I'm new on the forum.
This was the first thing I did when I got this gun. I moved the bar from between the pillar like on ynoty3k's pics. Then I removed the pin above the trigger and completely removed the mag disconnect bar. Replace the pin and your set! No problem after 1000 rounds with anything. The trigger feels a lot better IMHO.

Adjuster
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Adjuster » 30 Apr 2011, 17:41

I removed it because none of my pistols have a mag safety.

It was extra effort to seat a loaded magazine, and I'd read that the stock trigger feel was improved by it's removal.

Call me crazy, but I don't carry all the time, and when I do, I carry with an empty chamber, and full mag.

Just train to always draw, work the slide, and fire on the target.

I did carry cocked and locked for awhile, but it was always a nagging reminder that the pistol was only a safety click away from going off. Anyone would be able to drop the safety and shoot the pistol. Not everyone would think to work the slide and chamber a round before trying to shoot the pistol.

The .5 second I lose to work the slide is worth the peace of mind knowing my pistols can not just go off by pulling the trigger. (Especially on the Glock/Striker fired weapons with trigger safeties.)

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by blueorison » 30 Apr 2011, 20:03

Adjuster wrote:I removed it because none of my pistols have a mag safety.

It was extra effort to seat a loaded magazine, and I'd read that the stock trigger feel was improved by it's removal.

Call me crazy, but I don't carry all the time, and when I do, I carry with an empty chamber, and full mag.

Just train to always draw, work the slide, and fire on the target.

I did carry cocked and locked for awhile, but it was always a nagging reminder that the pistol was only a safety click away from going off. Anyone would be able to drop the safety and shoot the pistol. Not everyone would think to work the slide and chamber a round before trying to shoot the pistol.

The .5 second I lose to work the slide is worth the peace of mind knowing my pistols can not just go off by pulling the trigger. (Especially on the Glock/Striker fired weapons with trigger safeties.)
Don't agree with you, but I very much appreciate your reasoning. Solid post and thanks for sharing. You're on the money; it would only take .5 seconds when done correctly, to chamber that round. That is if you have both hands...and conditions were pretty much perfect... :) :thumb:
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Adjuster
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Adjuster » 30 Apr 2011, 23:54

On my PT99, with the manual safety that also locked the slide in place, and the ability to carry "half cocked" with the hammer off the pin, but not fully back, so you had to pull the trigger more than you do single action, but not a full DA pull, I carried locked and loaded on that pistol. (And do still when I use it.)

With the striker type, where you have a round in the chamber, and the striker is held back ready to fire by the sear, and the pin safety plunger, it bugged me to not have a manual safety, and way to keep the hammer/striker locked in place. (Yes, I understand the pin can't move unless the plunger is depressed by the trigger bar, same with my M&P9, and most striker fired weapons.)

ON the FSN, It's cocked and locked with an internal hammer, again pin safety plunger and the manual safety.

I get it that the round can not be fired unless I pull the trigger, after I move the safety. (Just like the PT99 other than the DA ability.)

Perhaps I will revise my carry routine with this FSN, and the PT99 v/s the striker fired pistols I have. I also see now that S&W is offering the M&P9 with a manual safety. (I would have gone that route if it was possible when I purchased that pistol.)

Just curious, but how many of you guys carry with 21 in the gun? And does anyone else carry with an empty chamber on their striker fired weapons where the only "safety" is the trigger design?

It's how Plexico and many others who use trigger safety, striker fired weapons have shot themselves over the years. Touch the trigger, and you get shot, as there is no manual safety to catch the error when there is a round in the chamber.

I think one more factor is "Glock" style actions where people have done trigger work, yet still carry the weapon. I have done the full trigger job to my M&P, and it's no longer gritty, or heavy, but it's nearly too light for carry. The trigger is about 4lbs now, and very short, nearly no take up, and reset is short, so you can double tap the pistol very easy, at will on target. (More recoil than the FSN, but it's a 9mm, so not like trying to stay on target with a .45.) As I have it setup, I'm comfortable at the range, but not really for carry, so I leave the chamber empty on that pistol when I carry.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by blueorison » 01 May 2011, 01:23

This carry issue has been covered many times.

Do what is best for you, and what works for you. It's your life and your choice to carry.

Glocks don't have safeties. That little protrusion of the trigger is not a safety at all. If anything contacts it and pulls on the trigger it will go off. I have no clue why they thought such a system as the "Glock trigger" would pass as the primary mechanical safety, although it did. Glock triggers have been documented before and recently to have been easily defeated when accidentally contacted by clothing or holsters, causing actual accidental discharges. AD's are a very rare occurrence, as usually only ND's occur because of idiots.

There are 1st hand articles written all over the web by their owners and the recipients of rounds through legs, arms, and feet because of ND's from Glocks and glock-type trigger safeties. The most recent one I have read was that of it contacting the flexible leather holster. The owner was not hurt.

With the FsN you have a very accessible and rapid safety selector. You can carry with the safety on and hammer cocked, round chambered.

There is no issue here, so there really shouldn't be a discussion on whether it is unsafe or not. Just like 1911's, the FsN can be carried cocked and locked.

LE carries with a live chamber. This is just an unrelated factoid. If I am carrying I will carry cocked and locked for SA.

Applying my knowledge of the FsN, it is important to remember:

1. Time rules all in a reactive SD situation. Accuracy is not relevant if you're already dead.
2. Slide spring is heavy. If you only have one arm free, do not count on racking it on your belt or table quickly enough.
3. Compare the length of slide pull from the FsN vs. a 9mm or .45, then relate the time difference.
4. Add the time it takes to rack the slide and chamber the round
5. Add the time it takes to disengage the safety
6. Add the relative complexity of both tasks and your ability to complete both and then acquire a rapid sight picture and engage the target
7. Realize reality and old school thinking do not always align with each other
8. Practice point shooting from holster, and realize your prep time, draw time, and add it to the times above
9. Practice more, you will never be prepared enough.
10. Practice speed and accuracy balance drills for when you actually have time in an SD situation to align your sights

My first shot from a concealable holster is less than one second at 25 feet on a 11 inch steel target repeatedly. I would go for something around one second; by 1.5 you are dead in a worst case scenario. You will want to practice as this distance, such that your ability will be effective at closer distances. Train for 300%. Not 100%, not 150%, not 200%. In the actual situation your ability will drop drastically.

If you train at the distance and size of target you think you'll be defending against, forget surviving. The distance of 25 feet and hits on the 11 inch COM target gives me effective ability on a 10 foot distance, man-sized target in an actual SD scenario when adrenaline and biology takes over.

Lastly, you can carry your manly big bore gun all you want, but if it's too heavy and you have no skill to take out the threat, all that self-assurance of your masculine caliber won't survive in the real world, and neither will you. Gun-store and weekend range talk is big when no one is shooting at you.
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Adjuster » 02 May 2011, 22:14

With the manual safety on my PT99, I did carry 1/2 cocked, and locked. (Can pull the hammer back off the pin, and it locks there, so your first pull is a slightly shorter DA, then SA for the rest of the magazine.)

With the M&P9, like the Glocks, it is a striker fired weapon, and as you note, if you pull the trigger, it goes bang. If you do a trigger job, it goes bang smoother, and often with less force needed.

Thus my choice with that weapon to carry with an empty chamber.

Now with the FSN, I'm considering my options, and I like that it has a manual safety. I feel fine with a loaded weapon, with a safety that prevents pulling the trigger, and even better, will not let the pin move untill the trigger is pulled.

The new M&P's with the manual safety tick me off, since it was not offered when I bought mine a few years back. Trading up to that is expensive, but I can cut off the right side, and still use my Crimson Trace grip on the pistol. More likely, I'm going to just carry the FSN from now on, it's lighter, has more ammo in it with a single mag, and like the 9mm, the recoil is very easy to control, so shooting multiple times is a reality.

I like this discussion, and sorry about it being something you guys have gone over before, but I appreciate the views, and the advice.

andywest
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by andywest » 11 May 2011, 15:25

Esteves wrote:This is a comprehensive write-up:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... stcount=49" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It takes longer to read it than it does to do it.

We probably ought to make this an FAQ. :)
This guide is really good, but in following it I bent the green "tension bar" inward into the frame. I had my local gunsmith remove the bar altogether after that, since I decided to stop digging my grave :) Again, this guide is great just be delicate when bending the tension bar.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Pilot81x » 24 May 2011, 10:54

Only recently bought my Five-seveN and I already like it. I just used the link to disable the mag safety, it was the only feature that I wasn't crazy about, and it worked perfectly. I'm not real sure what some of the older posts were talking about the new positioning causing more friction and a different feel to the trigger, it does feel different whether the bar is in its proper place or the modified one with the slide off, once you reassemble the weapon there is added friction in either configurations (I tried both repeatedly after reading some complaints and paranoia of damaging my brand new and fairly expensive gun. Thanks for helping me correct the fault I had with this weapon system.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by FNForever » 03 Oct 2011, 12:32

What is the difference in the trigger feel with the disconnect removed? Does it reduce pull weight?

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Wenzel » 07 Nov 2011, 23:51

If you are wanting your gun to shoot with out a mag in place, it's an easy fix.
Remove the rear site from right to left, take the plunger and spring out of the left side, reinstall the rear sight and you are done.
Be sure that you remove the parts from the left side, the similar parts on the right side are part of the firing pin safety system and you want to leave them in place. Be warned that the rear sight is going to be in there fairly tight, so use a sight pusher if you can.
Do not remove anything from the frame itself, ie: disconnector!
If you have access to a parts diagram familiarize yourself with the parts mentioned before you begin, simple job.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by panzermk2 » 08 Nov 2011, 01:09

I would not recommend this in anyway. Removing the firing pin block is very unsafe.
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by f3rr37 » 08 Nov 2011, 19:11

panzermk2 wrote:I would not recommend this in anyway. Removing the firing pin block is very unsafe.
I concur.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by rosie » 13 Nov 2011, 07:32

So I am a newbie. So I may not be as good at this "gun stuff" as many of you. I have recently been practicing with my new 57 and have cleaned it several times. I would like to know EXACTLY WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH LEAVING THE FIREARM ALONE AND THE WAY IT CAME WITH THE MAG SAFETY? I have not found any creditable reason, at least for me loading, firing and cleaning the weapon, to fool with a factory firearm and maybe voiding a warranty. Just asking and interested in a creditable reason that I can say something like "OK that makes sense--I never thought of that"

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by blueorison » 13 Nov 2011, 13:11

satellitedr3ams wrote:Rosie, there is no problem with leaving it alone... but I would like to know EXACTLY WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH REMOVING THE MAG SAFETY, AND WHY SHOULD I LEAVE IT ALONE?
I hit the "like" button.
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by rosie » 14 Nov 2011, 04:20

I always appreciated the fact that if I did not know the reason for something, asking the question will give you an answer. I can remember many times when I would ask about something and was surprised by the number of people who were happy I asked the question because they were too timid or scared to ask. My question, particularly lwith respect to the last two replies, still has no answer but returns my question with wasted space and time. I am sorry if my capitalizing my question has caused some angst but that was not my purpose--I genuinely wanted to know the reason. My assumption is that it is more a "convenience thing" wherein the mechanics of the firearm cannot be fully tested without an inserted magazine and, if your magazines have ammunition in them, you must unload a mag and insert same in firearm if you want to test out the mechanics of the firearm. If that is all there is to this, fine. Just asking and was not expecting a silly retort to my question.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by jgreenberg01 » 14 Nov 2011, 04:54

Benefits to removing the mag safety:

A) It lightens up the trigger pull a little.

B) You can still shoot a bad guy if your mag drops for any reason and you have one in the pipe.

C) It's easily reversible. If you're concerned about it becoming a warranty issue, return it to the original position before sending the gun to FN for repair.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with leaving the mag release safety in place. File this under the "whatever floats your boat" category.

Hopefully that answers the question. :)
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rosie
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by rosie » 14 Nov 2011, 10:25

Thank you jgreenberg for your reply. That is all I wanted to know without all the garbage that preceded it.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by panzermk2 » 14 Nov 2011, 10:31

The biggest failure I see at combat style matches and this goes way back to my IPSC/IDPA days in the late 80's early 90's is magazines NOT seated all the way and or coming loose while the gun was being fired.

Normally not an issue with 1911's but as I saw in IDPA more stock carry guns. A great number of these where Hi Powers and S&W autos. These auto's have mag safeties also. Many times shooters came to an instant halt when their guns stopped firing. Sometimes the mag would not drop out all the way so there where seconds wasted by the shooter fumbling around to figure out why his gun stopped going bang.

The more time I spend shooting the more intolerant of mag safeties I have become.
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f3rr37
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by f3rr37 » 14 Nov 2011, 21:33

rosie wrote:Thank you jgreenberg for your reply. That is all I wanted to know without all the garbage that preceded it.
Thank you for putting up with them. :)

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by cgilbert » 11 Dec 2011, 07:23

Been shooting Glocks for a long time, just bought FsN, shot it at the range for the first time this past week. I had been wondering why no trigger pull without mag inserted. I like to practice dry fire. Found this thread and just made the change.

Great forum!

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