Removing the mag "safety"?

Discuss the FN Five-seveN line of pistols and accessories.

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Davidlee
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Re: Disabling the magazine disconnect safety?

Post by Davidlee » 08 Mar 2011, 18:35

Never mind I pulled up the link and it explained the whole thing and this is something I will do.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Esteves » 08 Mar 2011, 20:25

I merged the two threads and "stickied" it.
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by joeshoe » 09 Mar 2011, 08:16

i've had my 5.7 a few weeks. did'nt give much care about the mag safety ! then at the defensive course im in we were practicing tactical reloads. just when every one cleared the first mag the instructor blew the stop whistle at that point he instructed every one that another threat had just came into the seen and needed action right now fire without inserting full mag! me and 2 others could not fire! i had the only 5.7. the mod will be performed asap! thanks for the info. i did not know this would be possible!

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by ryker » 10 Mar 2011, 07:10

- tactical reloads should be performed (if possible) with cover. Secondly a pistol is not a one shot stopper. The .55 seconds you used to shot one single round will be negated by still needing reload and then Re-engage the threat. That's extra movement. IMO and it's just my .02 once you make the choice to reload then follow through asap. A reload can be done supper quick. You can won prActice learn to send a round down range with pretty good accuracy from the reload position as your driving out for number 2 or 3 shots.

----
Technically has anybody thought of this- grind/smooth in an angle on the trigger disconnect bar and the trigger bar so that it still functions as a disconnect but with very little pressure effecting trigger pull?
Strike that. Has anybody measured what downward pressure is applied in the factory set up? Install magazine and fashion a hook to do a measured pull over the required distance upward.

I'd hope that fnh engineers designed the set up to only need fraction of pressure once the magazine was inserted. So the only real reason to remove the bar is if you personAlly don't agree with having such device. I don't see it as good or bad.

I've polished both contAct points and left it in place. I might polish of a minute amount to ever slightly decrease pressure to improve trigger creep.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by blueorison » 10 Mar 2011, 15:53

ryker wrote:- tactical reloads should be performed (if possible) with cover. Secondly a pistol is not a one shot stopper. The .55 seconds you used to shot one single round will be negated by still needing reload and then Re-engage the threat. That's extra movement. IMO and it's just my .02 once you make the choice to reload then follow through asap. A reload can be done supper quick. You can won prActice learn to send a round down range with pretty good accuracy from the reload position as your driving out for number 2 or 3 shots.

----
Technically has anybody thought of this- grind/smooth in an angle on the trigger disconnect bar and the trigger bar so that it still functions as a disconnect but with very little pressure effecting trigger pull?
Strike that. Has anybody measured what downward pressure is applied in the factory set up? Install magazine and fashion a hook to do a measured pull over the required distance upward.

I'd hope that fnh engineers designed the set up to only need fraction of pressure once the magazine was inserted. So the only real reason to remove the bar is if you personAlly don't agree with having such device. I don't see it as good or bad.

I've polished both contAct points and left it in place. I might polish of a minute amount to ever slightly decrease pressure to improve trigger creep.
haha, Ryker, you must be an IDPA guy.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by ryker » 10 Mar 2011, 17:17

No IPDA. But I know what your getting at. The rule book - which is why I said "if possible". The advantage of the fiveseven is the high round count. A usp45 guy would need a tac reload if down to 10round shot and 3 left in the magazine--- we would still have 11 rounds and not need to tac reload.. We can be smarter about when/if we even need to and when to tactical reload.

A 1911 guy would be down to his last round or two and need to make the choice to tactical reload 3 times before a fiveseven was forced to reload. Which point a 1911 guy with three magazines is empty "315 dispatch.... Be advised I am out of ammo and need backup code 10" lol

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by blueorison » 10 Mar 2011, 20:03

What is... IPDA?
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by ryker » 11 Mar 2011, 06:55

Typo - iPhone keypad

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Valorius » 22 Mar 2011, 11:25

danbrew wrote:Howdy, I owned a 5.7 in 2003 and sold it in 2004 and then recently bought another one. Was out blasting with it this weekend and really enjoyed it, but don't like the fact that it has a magazine "safety" (how that makes anything safer is beyond me).
Let me explain it to you.

Most accidents with auto pistols occur when someone removes the mag and forgets to (or otherwise doesn't) clear the chamber. With a magazine safety, such accidents are IMPOSSIBLE, thereby removing the #1 single cause of accidents in auto pistols.

Lord only knows how many thousands of ND's that magazine safeties have prevented over the years.
There are no statistics of course, since such accidents never occurred at all.

I am a big believer in mag safeties, manual safeties, and loaded chamber indicators.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by coris » 22 Mar 2011, 17:39

Valorius wrote:
danbrew wrote:Howdy, I owned a 5.7 in 2003 and sold it in 2004 and then recently bought another one. Was out blasting with it this weekend and really enjoyed it, but don't like the fact that it has a magazine "safety" (how that makes anything safer is beyond me).
Let me explain it to you.

Most accidents with auto pistols occur when someone removes the mag and forgets to (or otherwise doesn't) clear the chamber. With a magazine safety, such accidents are IMPOSSIBLE, thereby removing the #1 single cause of accidents in auto pistols.

Lord only knows how many thousands of ND's that magazine safeties have prevented over the years.
There are no statistics of course, since such accidents never occurred at all.

I am a big believer in mag safeties, manual safeties, and loaded chamber indicators.
Valorius,

Good explanation. You're the first one in this thread to state how it may actually help someone from preventing a tragedy. But for the FSN owners who want a better trigger pull, and can be responsible enough to perform a "chamber check" visually after dropping the mag, this is a good option.

Its just like in Blackhawk Down, where the one soldier shows his index finger when asked about his weapon's safety :) All the bells and whistles cannot replace good firearm discipline/ manual safety checks.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Valorius » 22 Mar 2011, 17:42

Quite true. I was merely explaining the rationale behind the device.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Rapier1772 » 22 Mar 2011, 19:44

Valorius wrote:I am a big believer in mag safeties, manual safeties, and loaded chamber indicators.
I am a big disbeliever in safeties & such. They are mechanical devices & will fail if you depend on them. While I have not personally seen safeties fail, I did have a gun that was recalled because of it failing with other people. I never trusted safeties so I didn't send mine in. I have seen loaded chamber indicators fail. I'm with coris on this one - YOU are the safety, never forget that.

I understand the rationale, I just don't buy into it.
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by SHEEPDOG » 22 Mar 2011, 21:33

Valorius wrote:
danbrew wrote:Howdy, I owned a 5.7 in 2003 and sold it in 2004 and then recently bought another one. Was out blasting with it this weekend and really enjoyed it, but don't like the fact that it has a magazine "safety" (how that makes anything safer is beyond me).
Let me explain it to you.

Most accidents with auto pistols occur when someone removes the mag and forgets to (or otherwise doesn't) clear the chamber. With a magazine safety, such accidents are IMPOSSIBLE, thereby removing the #1 single cause of accidents in auto pistols.

Lord only knows how many thousands of ND's that magazine safeties have prevented over the years.
There are no statistics of course, since such accidents never occurred at all.

I am a big believer in mag safeties, manual safeties, and loaded chamber indicators.
I'm going out on a limb here and guess you are not a big fan of 1911's carried cocked and locked. :ponder:

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by blueorison » 22 Mar 2011, 21:43

The more you depend on your equipment to be safe for you, the more you let it drive you. The reality is it should be the other way around.
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by panzermk2 » 22 Mar 2011, 22:28

FYI we can leave the mag safety in when we do the accurizing on your gun. We have refined it to the point the safety has no affect on trigger pull or feel. So we now give you the option of leaving it in place.
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Valorius » 24 Mar 2011, 07:26

swe123 wrote:
Valorius wrote:
danbrew wrote:Howdy, I owned a 5.7 in 2003 and sold it in 2004 and then recently bought another one. Was out blasting with it this weekend and really enjoyed it, but don't like the fact that it has a magazine "safety" (how that makes anything safer is beyond me).
Let me explain it to you.

Most accidents with auto pistols occur when someone removes the mag and forgets to (or otherwise doesn't) clear the chamber. With a magazine safety, such accidents are IMPOSSIBLE, thereby removing the #1 single cause of accidents in auto pistols.

Lord only knows how many thousands of ND's that magazine safeties have prevented over the years.
There are no statistics of course, since such accidents never occurred at all.

I am a big believer in mag safeties, manual safeties, and loaded chamber indicators.
I'm going out on a limb here and guess you are not a big fan of 1911's carried cocked and locked. :ponder:
I have no problems with 1911's or cocked and locked. I have owned and carried many of them over the years. All cocked and locked.

I am not a fan of glocks and other pistols with a short relatively light trigger and no manual safeties though.
blueorison wrote:The more you depend on your equipment to be safe for you, the more you let it drive you. The reality is it should be the other way around.
But the real world reality is that it is NOT the other way around. Let's face it, most people are morons and can use all the safeties they can get...

If people didn't make mistakes and have accidents cars wouldn't need seatbelts, airbags, etc. Table saws and saber saws wouldn't need guards to cut prevent themselves from cutting off their hands either...

But reality is, human beings make mistakes. Lots of mistakes. Guns are just machines, and like all machines, they can bite you in a moment of carelessness. Hard.
Rapier1772 wrote:
Valorius wrote:I am a big believer in mag safeties, manual safeties, and loaded chamber indicators.
I am a big disbeliever in safeties & such. They are mechanical devices & will fail if you depend on them. While I have not personally seen safeties fail, I did have a gun that was recalled because of it failing with other people. I never trusted safeties so I didn't send mine in. I have seen loaded chamber indicators fail. I'm with coris on this one - YOU are the safety, never forget that.

I understand the rationale, I just don't buy into it.
Well, to play devil's advocate:

Virtually every single weapons system in the US military from the M9 sidearm to an ICBM has manual safeties, and most systems have multiple safeties. The only projectile weapons in the military without a manual safety are the M11 pistol and some old revolvers, but even they all have passive safeties.

As an ex infantryman and ex NCO who has trained many US soldiers to shoot, i can say i have never seen a safety mechanically fail and prevent a weapon from discharging. I'm sure it's possible, but the odds are far, far higher that the user will screw up and would otherwise ND but be stopped from doing so by the safety devices installed on the system, than a safety device failing and rendering a weapon inoperable.

Even US pilots with millions of dollars in training and multiple redundant safeties manage to have ND's sometimes. If an elite fighter pilot can accidentally strafe a school in NJ with 20mm cannon fire or accidentally drop a bomb when he doesn't mean to, it goes to follow that joe blow average can too.

For anyone that doesn't like a manual safety on their weapon, it is very easy to simply not employ the safety. All weapons have some manner of safety that can theoretically fail, even a simple double action revolver has a transfer bar safety. A device that has probably, over the years, prevented thousands upon thousands of NDs from ever occurring at all. I would no more remove a magazine safety than i would remove a transfer bar safety from a revolver, or the "safe action" trigger safety from a glock.

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by blueorison » 24 Mar 2011, 07:42

Apples to oranges.

Comparing an airbag in a car to a mag safety; is the same as saying that negligent discharge will cause the gun to magically put up a barrier of armor to protect from the bullet strike.

If you truly wish to compare a car to a pistol in terms of magazine safety, then cars would have a built in chip that automatically cause them to stop at all red lights and no matter what, they could not run that red light. It would prevent them from engaging the "drive" function. This would prevent people dependent on mechanical safeties from being illogical and driving through a red light, thus killing themselves.

As of yet, there is no chip in our cars to do so. We're supposed to have the common sense to check the light, if it says "green for go" or "red for stop". That way we don't kill ourselves by driving into cross-travelling traffic.

Just as we are supposed to check each and every gun we pick up, if it is loaded, if we are pointing it at an object we wish to fire upon, and if we wish to fire at that object at that moment in time.

Blue out.
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Rapier1772 » 24 Mar 2011, 09:00

blueorison wrote:Apples to oranges.
I'm betting on apples :D
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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by Valorius » 24 Mar 2011, 09:43

blueorison wrote:Apples to oranges.

Comparing an airbag in a car to a mag safety; is the same as saying that negligent discharge will cause the gun to magically put up a barrier of armor to protect from the bullet strike.

If you truly wish to compare a car to a pistol in terms of magazine safety, then cars would have a built in chip that automatically cause them to stop at all red lights and no matter what, they could not run that red light. It would prevent them from engaging the "drive" function. This would prevent people dependent on mechanical safeties from being illogical and driving through a red light, thus killing themselves.

As of yet, there is no chip in our cars to do so. We're supposed to have the common sense to check the light, if it says "green for go" or "red for stop". That way we don't kill ourselves by driving into cross-travelling traffic.

Just as we are supposed to check each and every gun we pick up, if it is loaded, if we are pointing it at an object we wish to fire upon, and if we wish to fire at that object at that moment in time.

Blue out.
Well our cars do have manual lockouts that prevent us from putting the car in gear without our foot on the brake.

Should be common sense to make sure your foot is on the brake before you put the car in "D", but sadly, many idiots maimed and killed many innocent victims because they didn't put their foot on the brake before putting the car in "D".

This is why all automatic trans equipped cars now require your foot to be on the brake before engaging a drive gear.

That's a direct apple to apple comparison, i think.

Blue: Great pic! :D

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Re: Removing the mag "safety"?

Post by blueorison » 24 Mar 2011, 10:36

Rapier posted that pic, not me :p

Good comparison. I think I'll exit the discussion with "do what works for you!" :)
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