FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

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Gulcher
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FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by Gulcher » 16 Jan 2017, 20:42

Hi Guys. Long time lurker, first time poster, so thanks for what I have learned from you previously.

The other day, my pistol stopped extracting and ejecting when fired. It functions perfectly when manually operated, Feed, fire, extract and eject perfectly, no binding at all.

After a few shots manually operated (thinking it was just a glitch or bad ammo) I noticed that the loaded chamber indicator rod was missing, and there was a small 'crater' in the plastic slide cover. Upon closer examination I determined that the indicator rod and spring was missing completely. With my buddy watching closely he said that the slide wasn't moving at all with my usual SS195 28 grain ammo... We tried some 40 grain and he said the slide moves about halfway back before it slams shut..

Other than the missing indicator pin and spring, and the tiny 'crater' in the slide cover, there doesn't seem to be anything else wrong with it

Firearm is unmodified, all OEM, with about 500 rounds run through it since new. It was clean and lightly lubed when I started that day. It fired, ejected the first round of the day properly, and fed the second round, but that was the last it worked properly. I'm not 'limp-wristing' it.

It almost seems as if the recoil spring is too strong, since it operates perfectly, manually.... I can't see how the missing indicator parts would keep it from ejecting,. but maybe there is some FN type of safety design I don't understand (I'm a 1911 guy mostly, and a pretty good 'smith with them)

Contacted FN, who's only advice was "send it in for examination'.... Well, due to Federal Regulations combined with the remote area where I live, it would cost me about $200 dollars and waste an entire day of my time to drive a 250 mile round trip ship it to them legally, and it just isn't worth it to me.... Guess I'll see if I can fix it myself... But I thought I'd see if you guys have any ideas.

Thanks in advance.

DoubleJ
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by DoubleJ » 17 Jan 2017, 04:30

Some pictures of the missing LCI would help us figure out what happened. Can you see anything odd going on from the inside of the slide with it removed? All factory ammo it sounds like, yeah?

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panzermk2
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by panzermk2 » 17 Jan 2017, 06:05

You have had a neck separation. There is a piece of neck in the chamber. It is causing the hi pressure that blew out your loaded chamber indicator and you slide movement issues.
Jay Wolf
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panzermk2
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by panzermk2 » 17 Jan 2017, 06:06

FEDEX is 250 miles away? FEDEX can't pick it up?
Jay Wolf
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CPTKILLER
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by CPTKILLER » 17 Jan 2017, 08:55

My suggestion is to call Fedex and see where the closest location is. The pistol needs repair and is now unusable. A pickup MAY be possible.

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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by Gulcher » 17 Jan 2017, 11:24

DoubleJ wrote:Some pictures of the missing LCI would help us figure out what happened. Can you see anything odd going on from the inside of the slide with it removed? All factory ammo it sounds like, yeah?
I'll see about doing some photos in a day or two. Yep, all factory ammo. I've tried reloading but after going through three different brands of die sets, (Lee, Hornady and CH4D) every case gets stuck in the sizing die and has to be pounded out, no matter how much and what kind of lube. Even if I completely remove the lacquer and polish the case, it gets stuck. I'm getting a fair amount of shoulder movement... maybe my chamber is a bit oversize too. But prior to this, operation has been flawless, never a jam., and like I said in the original post, manually operating the slide everything works the way it should.
panzermk2 wrote:You have had a neck separation. There is a piece of neck in the chamber. It is causing the hi pressure that blew out your loaded chamber indicator and you slide movement issues.
.
Nope, Chamber and barrel is clear and shiny Not even any lacquer deposit. Cartridges chamber fully, easily.. maybe too easily. I guess I should cast the chamber and see if it is oversize.... (now where did I put that cerrosafe.?)
CPTKILLER wrote:My suggestion is to call Fedex and see where the closest location is. The pistol needs repair and is now unusable. A pickup MAY be possible.
panzermk2 wrote:FEDEX is 250 miles away? FEDEX can't pick it up?
I know where the closest location is. Not 250 miles away, just 125. but the round trip is 250.. I live off grid in a very remote area. No services of any kind, ten miles up a bad road, the last mile 4WD 20 miles to the nearest settlement, 30 miles to the nearest town.. Satellite internet is my only connection to the world, other than a trip to town every couple of weeks for supplies and pick up the mail at the Post Office.
......................................................................................................................

Reading the other threads related to missing chamber indicators etc, i get the idea that the missing piece can alter the gas flow and the blowback operation enough so that the slide will not go all the way back.???

If that is the case, I'm tempted to get on the lathe and make a plug for it

Thanks for the ideas guys.

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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by panzermk2 » 17 Jan 2017, 12:30

Is your name Richard Lewis? Cause he lives like that and packs a FsN.
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panzermk2
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by panzermk2 » 17 Jan 2017, 12:33

You could send me your slide or possibly just your barrel. There still might be something in there.

Even an over sized chamber would NOT stop the sizing die.

I have been doing this far to long. Your popped chamber indicator is from over pressure.
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by panzermk2 » 17 Jan 2017, 12:36

Check out these forum threads,

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic ... ead#unread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8535" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic ... =gold+neck" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jay Wolf
Pr. Elite Ammunition

"Engineers, the oompa-loompas of science!"

Be'ein Tachbulot Yipol Am Veteshua Berov Yoetz
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Gulcher
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by Gulcher » 17 Jan 2017, 15:01

panzermk2 wrote:Is your name Richard Lewis? Cause he lives like that and packs a FsN.
Heh, Nope. The 5.7 is my "going to town during the zombie apocalypse" gun. My EDC is a .454 or a .460 Rowland or a "Judge" depending on my mood... I'm a lot more likely to run into a bad tempered (black) bear, or perhaps a mean woodpecker or persistent squirrel than a horde of two legged critters.
panzermk2 wrote:Check out these forum threads,.....
Just scanned them. Will read more closely later.
Obviously I need to do some 'forensics'.
panzermk2 wrote:You could send me your slide or possibly just your barrel. There still might be something in there. .
I may take you up on that after I do some closer examination . There is some of your other stuff that has been on my 'want list' for a long time anyway. Probably would have ordered by now if getting 'restricted items' that can't go via regular mail wasn't such a hassle for me

waffentomas
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by waffentomas » 17 Jan 2017, 18:39

Don't give up on reloading for this cartridge and firearm. I have had no problems with RCBS dies and RCBS lube. Hasn't stuck yet after 1000+ cases.

Tom

Gulcher
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by Gulcher » 19 Jan 2017, 20:48

YAY! It is functioning now. :guns: Amazing what that little hole will do to the delayed blowback operation.

Just to see if this was going to be an easy fix or something major wrong, I machined a temporary plug out of brass just to fill the hole and see if it would function properly. It does! Woo Hoo! I tried it with a mix of SS195, SS197, and the American Eagle 40 Gr FMJ, and all work fine.

Here are photos: (below each image will be link to larger view)

This is the hole in the slide where the old indicator pin and spring blew out:

Image>
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is the slide with the cover removed, showing the hole where the indicator pin belongs:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is the inside of the slide cover, showing the enlarged hole where the indicator blew through:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is the pin I turned from brass rod on the lathe, Left a 'cap' on it just small enough to clear the slide cutout, but plenty big enough to not get blown through the hole in the slide cover:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is the pin, in place in the slide:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/5.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cut one of my test fire cases in half with the bandsaw, with another freshly fired case on the side. They look OK to me, other than some shoulder movement; I don't see any significant pressure signs, etc. Perhaps someone who knows the 5.7 better might see something I missed?
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/6.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fired case measurements:

Shoulder diameter:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/7.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

base diameter:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/8.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Inside mouth diameter:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/10.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Overall length (I just remeasured several, and they range from 1.1365 to 1.144 I guess I should have marked them as to which load/brand they were):
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/11.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Base to end of shoulder (of the one that is 1.144OAL::
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/12.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It actually looks to me like there is less primer flow with this plug in place than with the indicator pin and spring there... I didn't have an older one handy to photo, so I'm just guessing though:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/9.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the test fired cases between SS195 and SS197:
Image
http://www.az123.com/FNphotos/13.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
............................................................................
I reckon I'll order a replacement loaded chamber indicator pin, spring and new slide cover. I could make the pin and probably have a spring that would work, but since I need a new cover anyway, I guess I might as well not waste the time and risk making my own, since they are inexpensive enough.

DoubleJ
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by DoubleJ » 20 Jan 2017, 04:41

What a weird pistol, never would have crossed my mind that a missing LCI would shut it down like that. Cases look fine to me, keep an eye open for necks about half that long, dented case mouths, and extremely carbon fouled necks (not from a dirty chamber, but from blow by). I've not heard of overpressure factory stuff, usually it's on the wimpy side, but anything can happen.

CPTKILLER
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by CPTKILLER » 20 Jan 2017, 08:07

Amazing and a mechanical design error.

Gulcher
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by Gulcher » 20 Jan 2017, 09:22

DoubleJ wrote:What a weird pistol, never would have crossed my mind that a missing LCI would shut it down like that. .......
CPTKILLER wrote:Amazing and a mechanical design error.
Indeed. I'd probably never have considered it had not panzermk2 hinted about it back in an older thread:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic ... 7&p=210332" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I really appreciate that post, because it seems almost counter-intuitive to me.

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panzermk2
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by panzermk2 » 20 Jan 2017, 13:06

Here you go things to look for,

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic ... hilit=ring" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jay Wolf
Pr. Elite Ammunition

"Engineers, the oompa-loompas of science!"

Be'ein Tachbulot Yipol Am Veteshua Berov Yoetz
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Gulcher
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by Gulcher » 25 Jan 2017, 17:31

Well, cool.!!
Not only did I get the pistol functioning , I tried resizing the brass this afternoon.. (Just the stuff that I shot a few days ago from my test-firings), and I had no trouble at all with the sizing.

Not sure why it worked so well this time, after nothing but anger and frustration before... Maybe it is the new lube I tried... Ran a Q-tip with a mixture of "Break Free" and RCBS Case Lube around the neck and shoulder, and pre-lubed the inside of the die with the same mixture. Also used a different press, The heavier one out in my workshop building, rather than the light one I have in my little cabin. Both the Lee die and CH4D die worked OK, didn't even strip off any lacquer.

I'll have to try resizing some of the older brass and see if it works too.

But I'm kinda pleased.

Gulcher
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by Gulcher » 02 Feb 2017, 17:35

Thought you guys might be interested in some further details...
I find it interesting anyway, that apparently due only to the tighter fit on that brass plug that I made, and/or its extra weight (about 40 grains more than the OEM loaded chamber indicator pin and spring), there is indeed a difference between fired cases:

Here is a photo of a comparison of the primer flow of then and now:
Image

And measuring...
The overall length of older fired case is 1.1420" and the newly fired is 1.1375"
The rear of the shoulder to the bottom of the case is ~ .9620" on the old and ~.9515 on the newly fired one. (~ .9220 on an unfired SS195 i have sitting here.)

The newly fired ones seem to resize with less pressure on the handle of the press, although I haven't actually measured the difference.

I'm tempted to leave the brass plug in, rather than convert back to OEM , even though I got a replacement pin, spring and slide cover from MGW (good service from them, by the way).

Have also ordered the heavier recoil spring from Elite. It will be interesting to see if the primers have even less cratering and shoulder movement with that installed.

DoubleJ
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by DoubleJ » 03 Feb 2017, 15:18

Your old primer flow is troubling, that's too much for factory ammo. If I was reloading, I'd count that as a pressure sign and call it day. Do you have a chronograph?

Gulcher
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Re: FNH 5.7 quit ejecting

Post by Gulcher » 03 Feb 2017, 18:34

DoubleJ wrote:Do you have a chronograph?
Yeah. Every time I have tested FN ammo with it it was pretty close to specs. 20-40 fps over , but I'm at high altitude.

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