2013 Shot Show

Driller · Post by **Driller** » 16 Jan 2013, 05:28

Anyone know anybody who is at the shot show that can corner the FNH booth guys and ask them whats up with 5.7 handgun status?

NLVMike · Post by **NLVMike** » 16 Jan 2013, 14:24

I spent a few hours at the SHOT show today. I don't really have time for a full report right now, but I have to brain dump. First, it is AWESOME! If you ever get the chance to go, don't pass. 100K industry professionals and more goodies to drool at than.... nevermind, I digress.

The FN booth was very busy. My pics aren't great, but;

The latest iteration of the FsN has a one piece slide, instead of the two piece welded slide (that was news to me), a new slide cover with forward serrations, and "combat adjustable sights". They are producing them as fast as they can. Older versions are still in the distribution chain, but this is the only version they are making right now.

I asked many questions of the FN gal and the Fiocchi guy about the ammo, and here is what I pieced together. FN maintains very tight control on the patents and licensing. Only Fiocchi manufactures and coats the brass. They claim they run 24/7 and make every case that ATK requests of the them. ATK makes the powder, primers, 195 bullets, and American Eagle bullets, and Hornady makes the V-max bullets. ATK assembles everything. ATK kind of hinted that they could make the brass faster if FN would let them.

FN assembles the 190 and 198 in Belgium and sells most of it overseas. If it "were" true that the Israeli's ordered a lot of ammo, it would be coming from the Belgium plant and would not affect US supply. They didn't confirm or deny the Israel thing.

The FN, ATK, and Fiocchi people all rolled their eyes as if I were the umpteenth person to ask question about 5.7 ammo. They all said production is at full speed and that sales and hoarding are all that is causing the lack of supply.

More later...

Vortec MAX · Post by **Vortec MAX** » 16 Jan 2013, 14:41

I would think that if all that were true... one big piece of information is that ATK makes the 195 bullets. I wonder if they would sell them directly to Elite, or if there is some sort of "patent licensing" issue involved. I really liked the S4 rounds they used to make with "virgin" 28 grain bullets that they obtained from some super secret source.

Mike

NLVMike · Post by **NLVMike** » 16 Jan 2013, 16:01

Don't shoot the messenger. I was just brain dumping all I could wrangle out of them. I talked to one lady who worked for ATK for 5 years and is now with FN. She started off with, "you just don't understand how it all works". I responded with, "pretend I will understand it if you explain it all". She turned out to be quite helpful.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 16 Jan 2013, 17:04

There is no patents on the 5.7 round to anyones knowledge. To Further ATK merely distributes the ammo, and has been stated by multiple ATK employees that they (Federal) do not load any 5.7 ammo. They merely distribute it. ATK merely has the distribution rights, and FN maintains tight control on QC and manufacture of 5.7 ammo. I won't believe either side, until FN makes a public release.

jimf5 · Post by **jimf5** » 16 Jan 2013, 17:35

HI All:
I also talked to an FN person and the only things he said is that they are working as fast as they can on the ammo and FN is only selling is the 195LF and that American Eagle is going to run the 40 grn Blue tip and soon will realease a "Plinking round at a lower price" Please consider these people are in the Marketing Dept at FN.

He then tried to side track me by showing the 2013 model 5.7 pistol. He asked how many I would like to order and my response was"How can I sell them if there is no ammunition to shoot?"

jimf5

CDeel · Post by **CDeel** » 16 Jan 2013, 17:39

Hope I can get one of those new slide covers.

Stitches1974 · Post by **Stitches1974** » 16 Jan 2013, 17:48

I would like that slide cover as well.

NLVMike · Post by **NLVMike** » 16 Jan 2013, 19:01

Just a few other notes as I rack my brain. The ATK/FN gal was quite adamant that FN will not license ATK to make the brass. The FN booth is a wonderful place. Wide open, lots of knowledgeable people and shooting team members, and they let you handle and play with everything. The Fiocchi booth was much different. Lots of pictures and brochures, but no real product. Most of the folks were in suits and if you had a question they took you into a little business meeting. They don't list 5.7 as a product they have anything to do with in any catalog. When I asked, I got the eye roll and "everyone keeps asking about that". He kept stating, "our parent company makes and coats the brass". His badge said Fiocchi, so I'm not really sure what he meant by "parent company".

The 2013 catalog has a disclaimer on every page with the FsN or the P90 that reads, "warning: Use only specially coated factory loaded ammunition. Use of any non factory coated and loaded ammunition can result in excessive pressures leading to possible personal injury and damage to the pistol". I don't recall seeing that warning in previous catalogs, at least not specific to the coating.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 16 Jan 2013, 22:18

Probably because reloaders are stripping the coating off it.

ROCKETW19 · Post by **ROCKETW19** » 17 Jan 2013, 00:25

NLV MIKE:
thank you for the updates.
other than the look of the slide anything else new on the gun?
AMMO 24/7 lol ya right sure not sending to the US if true. or maybe they hand load each one

shopsmart · Post by **shopsmart** » 17 Jan 2013, 05:18

I was at the NRA show 2 years ago. FN said they were coming out with a practice target round then. It is still now. I would hold some feet to the fire. The other round that was mentioned FINALLY came out last year is AE 40gr ers...

EDIT: Also aren't they also possibly sinking their ship with restricting its manufacture? It might come a time when we can't afford it and lack of competition makes it into the obsolete catergory...

Driller · Post by **Driller** » 17 Jan 2013, 05:37

Can you tell any weight differences between the old 5.7 and the new 5.7 handgun? Oh and how much is expected retail?

NLVMike · Post by **NLVMike** » 17 Jan 2013, 06:10

Driller, I was going to hold off on these comments, because they are completely without any data. Just my opinion. I have two FsN's, but 99% of my shooting is with my old IOM, so take that into account. The one at the SHOT show felt bigger, and edgier (is that a word). I tried taking that picture looking down at the top of the slide, because it has that rail coming back from the front sight, and the back of the slide cover is bulky feeling. I can't say that it felt any heavier, as I didn't have mine to hold with it. The rep was telling me that the slide is one piece, not welded like before. I'm sure Jay would know about it, but I have never seen my slide without the cover on. I didn't know it was welded.

Post by **blueorison** » 17 Jan 2013, 06:39

NLVMike wrote:Don't shoot the messenger. I was just brain dumping all I could wrangle out of them. I talked to one lady who worked for ATK for 5 years and is now with FN. She started off with, "you just don't understand how it all works". I responded with, "pretend I will understand it if you explain it all". She turned out to be quite helpful.

I really, really like your response.

:thumb:

Thank you for taking the time and energy to ply information out of them. I don't know what to believe, and choose to believe nothing, but thank you for getting a side of the story. I'm not in the business, so I really can't know who makes what.

I wish they lowered the bore-height by raising the tail of the gun. That's the only thing with which I had an issue. Now we'll have to see if the upper of the new variant will mate to the USG lower. It should, seeing that the lower of the platform looks unchanged.

Looks like we'll be adding another iteration or "FsN Variant" to the FsN thread.

The USG is now history. Or will it be USG with a different slide?

Time will tell if this new variant is of the quality necessary. On paper, it should hold up even better.

NLVMike, I sent you a PM.

Driller · Post by **Driller** » 17 Jan 2013, 07:04

Yes thanks for this info. FNH was being so secretive about if even there was going to be any more in production. Their pre shot show press release did not mention anything about the 5.7. I will buy this new one as soon as they start shipping. I need to start cycling some of this 10,000 round 5.7 inventory.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 17 Jan 2013, 15:14

Who is the person with the nervous condition that ATTEMPTED to take a photograph of the side of the new five seven?

fntech1 · Post by **fntech1** » 17 Jan 2013, 15:55

Thank you, NLVMike.

Post by **blueorison** » 18 Jan 2013, 00:47

Valorius wrote:Who is the person with the nervous condition that ATTEMPTED to take a photograph of the side of the new five seven?

Someone who took the time to post and give us more info, firsthand? :thumb:

Driller · Post by **Driller** » 18 Jan 2013, 03:24

blueorison wrote:
Valorius wrote:Who is the person with the nervous condition that ATTEMPTED to take a photograph of the side of the new five seven?
Someone who took the time to post and give us more info, firsthand? :thumb:

:agree:

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 18 Jan 2013, 15:39

Well that blurry picture is surely appreciated by people with Glaucoma.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 18 Jan 2013, 15:56

Those people probably won't be shooting right now anyway unless it's an emergency. They have more important things to worry about, like the surgery to fix it.

Post by **blueorison** » 18 Jan 2013, 16:29

Valorius wrote:Well that blurry picture is surely appreciated by people with Glaucoma.

You have entitlement issues.

Worse than most people in the Walmart line.

Mike didn't have to take pictures. You don't deserve any.

The world doesn't revolve around you. You must drive a BMW or Porsche.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 18 Jan 2013, 17:29

Look, a clear picture. I guess i shouldn't share it with you, since the world doesn't revolve around you. And i'm pretty sure i've seen you in Wal Mart on the fat people scooters.

YOU ARE WELCOME.

Oh, and for the record: It's ugly. But not as ugly as you.

PS: I am a former BMW AND Porsche owner. Now i just drive an old camaro.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 18 Jan 2013, 17:36

Yeah Blue, you sure are fat...

And now to recuse myself before I tell you how I really feel

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 18 Jan 2013, 17:42

Valorius wrote:YOU ARE WELCOME.

Oh, and for the record: It's ugly. But not as ugly as you.

PS: I am a former BMW AND Porsche owner. Now i just drive an old camaro.

Someone doesn't know how to play well with the other kids.

Manners.

Learn them. Live them. Love them.

MikeSantor · Post by **MikeSantor** » 18 Jan 2013, 17:56

Valorius, your a douche bag. I will gladly get banned from this forum for telling you that out in the open.

F*&$ing tool...

Driller · Post by **Driller** » 18 Jan 2013, 18:08

I am relieved that they should be hitting the gun stores soon. Already have my money set aside. Need another 5.7 just incase. Thank you for the extra effort with those photos. I really appreciate it.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 18 Jan 2013, 18:56

According to the forum/thread where val got the pic (nice of him to include a reference eh?), it is all one piece instead of a cover. Wonder if that will effect after-market threaded barrels like EFK & Jarvis? In the earlier pics, the factory barrel looks the same as the current models :ponder:
Apparently they're going with the all black controls as well. :skep:

I don't really like the looks of it

s-industries needs to get busy with his :laugh:

MikeSantor · Post by **MikeSantor** » 18 Jan 2013, 19:02

So if it is one piece then that means the "cover", for a lack of better terms, is metal. We have had several discussions on how that is not possible. Im real curious on this. It looks like plastic. What does "1 piece" mean?

CDeel · Post by **CDeel** » 18 Jan 2013, 19:02

Back on topic, it looks like the frame is tapered near the muzzle now. And the rear sight removal hole THINGY is farther back now. And is the black mag release making a comeback?!

Post by **Rapier1772** » 18 Jan 2013, 19:28

MikeSantor wrote:So if it is one piece then that means the "cover", for a lack of better terms, is metal. We have had several discussions on how that is not possible. Im real curious on this. It looks like plastic. What does "1 piece" mean?

Here is where I got that. Anything more and your guess is as good as mine

bravo619 · Post by **bravo619** » 18 Jan 2013, 20:41

Somebody needs to polish up on their manners

Valorius wrote:Well that blurry picture is surely appreciated by people with Glaucoma.

bravo619 · Post by **bravo619** » 18 Jan 2013, 20:43

Thanks Mike fantastic info for those who didn't get to go. you rock!

Post by **blueorison** » 18 Jan 2013, 21:06

CDeel wrote:Back on topic, it looks like the frame is tapered near the muzzle now. And the rear sight removal hole THINGY is farther back now. And is the black mag release making a comeback?!

NICE CATCH!

I saw that, too!

The lower frame is definitely redesigned. It looks like it is a completely new variant. However, if the controls and pin locations/firing mechanism locations are all the same, and the rails match up, I wonder if the uppers/lowers are swappable with the USG variant.

From the picture, I 100% do not like the new variant's changes. I don't think they're that functional because of the type/location of the forward serrations, and as far as aesthetics go, it looks pretty horrible. Like someone took an iron and a file and made those forward serrations. I don't care about aesthetics, though. Only function.

I'll shoot it if it works great. I do think the serrations that I laser etched into my slide cover would work much better as they are wider and deeper, with a grip-tape consistency. BUT MAYBE IT'S JUST ME.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 18 Jan 2013, 21:11

don't like the finish much on the new slide cover.

frame looks the same to me.

NLVMike · Post by **NLVMike** » 18 Jan 2013, 21:20

OK, I read the other forum thread and the various comments on my pics. The pic Valorius put up from the other forum is much better. Thanks. However, the info is way wrong. It is definitely still a polymer slide cover over a metal slide, just like before. The shape is different, the rear sight is different. The big difference, according to the rep, is that the metal slide (underneath the cover) is made from a single piece of steel. Apparently, they are welded on ours.

Jay, can you jump in on this? I haven't seen one with the cover off. Even if I did, I'm not sure I could tell. I handled on old Detonics Combatmaster with a cut and welded slide, and I couldn't tell.

I couldn't make it back to SHOT today so I gave away my passes and converted a friend to a gun nut. The show was pretty over the top. At one point I was standing looking at a very cool booth and noticed that the guy in a suit next to me looked familiar. Glanced at his name tag. It was Ronnie Barrett. I thanked him for his contribution to making Al-Quaida miserable. He was cool. FN had Chris Kyle at the booth for a day too. Bad A$$ dude.

NLVMike · Post by **NLVMike** » 18 Jan 2013, 21:36

I picked up the 2013 FN catalog to mail to Blue. You guys are stretching my technical abilities, but I downloaded something called camscanner on my droid and shot a pic of the FsN page.

Note in the catalog pic that the frame has all black controls, and the copy mentions FDE color available.

The most notable thing about the brochure is that we commercial peons are NOT the market FH is after. 95% of the products mount in a pod or window of a military aircraft.

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 18 Jan 2013, 21:58

Mike, thanks for all your efforts! Yeah, one of your pictures may be a bit blurry...we're all thankful anyway. The slide is a stamped piece of sheet metal on our guns. The internal portion (breech face/firing pin channel/etc.) is welded into the sheet metal slide. I'm assuming the new model is machined from billet. If it is, I'm scared to know what it'll do to the price.

CDeel · Post by **CDeel** » 19 Jan 2013, 11:43

The frame isn't tapered in the catalog?

Post by **Grantness** » 19 Jan 2013, 16:14

I wonder if I can swap out those black controls for my old ones? LOL. Thank you Mike and thank you Val for your pictures.

I'd say the first thing that comes to mind is that those serrations are going to be terribly uncomfortable to wear w/o a holster as I tend to do day to day.

Anyone get a chance to try the trigger out? Any pics of the innards? (LOL second time i've asked that question tonight).

"Combat" adjustable rear sights would definitely have been something I would have suggested. I know on my USG, the dots are way too small.

...but does the new FsN offer anything special that I can't have done or approximated by after-market improvements currently available? If what they say is true, then the slide should be a bit more sturdy....but that's a hard thing to quantify. Anything else?

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 19 Jan 2013, 22:17

I went for a quick trip there as well. Plenty of buzz. I would say all the recaps here are accurate. Nothing really to add except this:

Hey Blue, guess who is going on a private tour and shooting with the guys at Boberg Arms??

Post by **blueorison** » 19 Jan 2013, 22:35

flyingirish04 wrote:I went for a quick trip there as well. Plenty of buzz. I would say all the recaps here are accurate. Nothing really to add except this:

Hey Blue, guess who is going on a private tour and shooting with the guys at Boberg Arms??

...

MY SUB-MOA ROCKS

So unfair...

If you bring me back a souvenir from Boberg I'll love you forever!

ddouglas · Post by **ddouglas** » 20 Jan 2013, 08:47

What's the deal with Boberg? A couple of years ago, I saw the ads for his new .380, with that interesting-looking cartridge-from-magazine extraction cycle and I sent him an email asking to be notified when the pistols would be available for sale. Since then, I've received a couple of offers from him to purchase one, but the cost seems way too high. Has anyone here shot one? I haven't seen any reviews of the pistol and I was waiting for those before I added another curiosity item to my collection.

Post by **blueorison** » 20 Jan 2013, 09:19

ddouglas wrote:What's the deal with Boberg? A couple of years ago, I saw the ads for his new .380, with that interesting-looking cartridge-from-magazine extraction cycle and I sent him an email asking to be notified when the pistols would be available for sale. Since then, I've received a couple of offers from him to purchase one, but the cost seems way too high. Has anyone here shot one? I haven't seen any reviews of the pistol and I was waiting for those before I added another curiosity item to my collection.

Price is high. It's a 9mm, there are no .380's that he makes

There are many reviews out there, and on the Boberg website!

Hope that helps.

ddouglas · Post by **ddouglas** » 20 Jan 2013, 10:16

Yes..9mm.... my bad.

WISCOPROUD · Post by **WISCOPROUD** » 20 Jan 2013, 11:01

the new FN looks cool but whats the point of spending $1200 on up for a toy u cant feed?

We need a CONSISTANT supply of ammo

It's hard to get excited about it

Post by **Rapier1772** » 20 Jan 2013, 13:22

It is constant - constantly inadequate :laugh:

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 21 Jan 2013, 08:07

THats why I have two cases of 192 sitting in storage. If and when 195 and 197 drys up (hasn't up here), I have a buffer.

Post by **blueorison** » 21 Jan 2013, 12:03

WISCOPROUD wrote:the new FN looks cool but whats the point of spending $1200 on up for a toy u cant feed?

We need a CONSISTANT supply of ammo

It's hard to get excited about it

You have a valid point, WISCOPROUD, it would be beneficial to users of the platform if there was a "CONSISTENT" supply of ammunition.

However, I'll pose the counterpoint that we could be self-sufficient. The American way (or, the used-to-be-American way. I'm pretty sure the "new" American way is "be-reliant-on-everyone-else-you're-not-responsible-for-anything-it-is-never-your-fault")

and reload.

However, my argument is limited to the scope of the rounds brass' abilities; even if we reload with lighter-than-factory loads, the brass lasts a limited time, much less than that of other common pistol cartridges.

:thumb:

Post by **blueorison** » 21 Jan 2013, 12:09

NLVMike wrote:
I asked many questions of the FN gal and the Fiocchi guy about the ammo, and here is what I pieced together. FN maintains very tight control on the patents and licensing. Only Fiocchi manufactures and coats the brass. They claim they run 24/7 and make every case that ATK requests of the them. ATK makes the powder, primers, 195 bullets, and American Eagle bullets, and Hornady makes the V-max bullets. ATK assembles everything. ATK kind of hinted that they could make the brass faster if FN would let them.

FN assembles the 190 and 198 in Belgium and sells most of it overseas. If it "were" true that the Israeli's ordered a lot of ammo, it would be coming from the Belgium plant and would not affect US supply. They didn't confirm or deny the Israel thing.

Buffman wrote:There is no patents on the 5.7 round to anyones knowledge. To Further ATK merely distributes the ammo, and has been stated by multiple ATK employees that they (Federal) do not load any 5.7 ammo. They merely distribute it. ATK merely has the distribution rights, and FN maintains tight control on QC and manufacture of 5.7 ammo. I won't believe either side, until FN makes a public release.

In lieu of the above, shared, FN HERSTAL (not FNH USA) just posted this release on their facebook social media page:

"Another personal message.
Please try to understand that FN isn't choosing to limit production or sale of 5.7 cartridges and the systems that utilize them. There are 3 commercially available, FN produced or contracted 5.7x28mm cartridges - the SS195LF and SS197SR are manufactured by FN Herstal, but the former is only made in Belgium, and the latter is distributed by the Federal Cartridge Company in the US, not FNH USA. Federal Cartridge Company also produces the American Eagle variant. Therefore, in the States, it's ultimately not up to FN how much 5.7 is circulated, or at what price. I know this isn't what you want to hear, and again I am sorry."

I hope this helps. I still have yet to decipher the truth behind the questions from reading all 3 posts, above.

NLVMike · Post by **NLVMike** » 21 Jan 2013, 14:06

blueorison wrote: In lieu of the above, shared, FN HERSTAL (not FNH USA) just posted this release on their facebook social media page:

"Another personal message.
Please try to understand that FN isn't choosing to limit production or sale of 5.7 cartridges and the systems that utilize them. There are 3 commercially available, FN produced or contracted 5.7x28mm cartridges - the SS195LF and SS197SR are manufactured by FN Herstal, but the former is only made in Belgium, and the latter is distributed by the Federal Cartridge Company in the US, not FNH USA. Federal Cartridge Company also produces the American Eagle variant. Therefore, in the States, it's ultimately not up to FN how much 5.7 is circulated, or at what price. I know this isn't what you want to hear, and again I am sorry."

I hope this helps. I still have yet to decipher the truth behind the questions from reading all 3 posts, above.

Just a note. That page is run by a fan, just like us, not by FN.

RockyMtRecon · Post by **RockyMtRecon** » 21 Jan 2013, 22:16

It appears that FN has updated the Military side of their site with the "Five-seveN MK2". The FNUSA site is not currently loading so maybe they are updating it.

http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=2 ... 527255db41

Post by **panzermk2** » 21 Jan 2013, 22:27

Looks like a slide cover change. All the pins and controls are in the same exact place. I would need to get my hands on one to rip apart to see what's going on inside and see how much they really changed. Hope like hell they added a steel re-enforcement where the rail meets the frame.

CDeel · Post by **CDeel** » 22 Jan 2013, 16:26

The one on their website shows different sights, what the heck hahaha

JMike · Post by **JMike** » 23 Jan 2013, 10:27

>>He then tried to side track me by showing the 2013 model 5.7 pistol. He asked how many I would like to order and my response was"How can I sell them if there is no ammunition to shoot?" <<

LOL! Thats funny but a damned valid question.

Post by **blueorison** » 23 Jan 2013, 22:19

NLVMike wrote:
blueorison wrote: In lieu of the above, shared, FN HERSTAL (not FNH USA) just posted this release on their facebook social media page:

"Another personal message.
Please try to understand that FN isn't choosing to limit production or sale of 5.7 cartridges and the systems that utilize them. There are 3 commercially available, FN produced or contracted 5.7x28mm cartridges - the SS195LF and SS197SR are manufactured by FN Herstal, but the former is only made in Belgium, and the latter is distributed by the Federal Cartridge Company in the US, not FNH USA. Federal Cartridge Company also produces the American Eagle variant. Therefore, in the States, it's ultimately not up to FN how much 5.7 is circulated, or at what price. I know this isn't what you want to hear, and again I am sorry."

I hope this helps. I still have yet to decipher the truth behind the questions from reading all 3 posts, above.

Just a note. That page is run by a fan, just like us, not by FN.

Didn't know that, thanks for fact-checking, Mike!

:thumb:

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 26 Jan 2013, 10:54

jgreenberg01 wrote:
Valorius wrote:YOU ARE WELCOME.

Oh, and for the record: It's ugly. But not as ugly as you.

PS: I am a former BMW AND Porsche owner. Now i just drive an old camaro.
Someone doesn't know how to play well with the other kids.

Manners.

Learn them. Live them. Love them.

Manners are for people that are afraid to say what they really think.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 26 Jan 2013, 10:59

WISCOPROUD wrote:the new FN looks cool but whats the point of spending $1200 on up for a toy u cant feed?

We need a CONSISTANT supply of ammo

It's hard to get excited about it

All the more so because the only ammo that is long term stock pile-able and afordable (or was affordable) is crappy SS197SR, or Federal FMJ ammo.

FN has really screwed the pooch with this caliber....it should be far, far more widespread than it is. People LOVE these guns and if they'd price them more reasonably, they'd probably sell 3x as many of them.

Doubly so if they'd actually sell good ammo that can be stockpiled long term. Switching to LF primers was stupid.

$1100-1200 for a polymer blow back pistol....insanity.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 26 Jan 2013, 13:17

I have to remark on intellectually dishonest people when they tell others how they should price their products, when they clearly have no idea of what they speak. Even more humorous is that if they had actually spent just a brief time understanding the economic framework of a situation, they would learn quickly that they don't know what they don't know.

Now, I'm not saying I don't have issues with the meekness that FN approaches this market, but then again I don't have skin in their game. I can tell you one thing though, if it were as easy as some apparent internet chat room hedge fund managers on this forum make it sound like, I am sure that someone else would have already made an alternative. I'm sure Jay and Lisa would be millionaires. I'm sure that this would be more than a hobby for me, and an expensive hobby at that.

One thing that my brief, although tangential in many ways, experience in this sector has taught me is that simply having a great idea isn't enough. The compliance requirements and required knowledge of the market that is at best opaque is daunting. Internet commandos need not apply.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 26 Jan 2013, 13:20

Valorius wrote:
jgreenberg01 wrote:
Valorius wrote:YOU ARE WELCOME.

Oh, and for the record: It's ugly. But not as ugly as you.

PS: I am a former BMW AND Porsche owner. Now i just drive an old camaro.
Someone doesn't know how to play well with the other kids.

Manners.

Learn them. Live them. Love them.
Manners are for people that are afraid to say what they really think.

I think you are confusing candor with false bravado. As evidenced by your needing to note the former cars you allegedly owned.

BTW, you know the difference between a porcupine and a BMW???

As far as I know, porcupines don't have pricks inside of them...

...phrasing?

Post by **panzermk2** » 26 Jan 2013, 13:55

flyingirish04 wrote:I have to remark on intellectually dishonest people when they tell others how they should price their products, when they clearly have no idea of what they speak. Even more humorous is that if they had actually spent just a brief time understanding the economic framework of a situation, they would learn quickly that they don't know what they don't know.

Now, I'm not saying I don't have issues with the meekness that FN approaches this market, but then again I don't have skin in their game. I can tell you one thing though, if it were as easy as some apparent internet chat room hedge fund managers on this forum make it sound like, I am sure that someone else would have already made an alternative. I'm sure Jay and Lisa would be millionaires. I'm sure that this would be more than a hobby for me, and an expensive hobby at that.

One thing that my brief, although tangential in many ways, experience in this sector has taught me is that simply having a great idea isn't enough. The compliance requirements and required knowledge of the market that is at best opaque is daunting. Internet commandos need not apply.

:thumb: Not much more I could add.

Post by **jmz5** » 26 Jan 2013, 19:12

See you later Val, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. :banned:

Stitches1974 · Post by **Stitches1974** » 26 Jan 2013, 19:26

jmz5 wrote:See you later Val, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. :banned:

:thumb: :agree:

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