FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Discuss the FN Five-seveN line of pistols and accessories.

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Ospy
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FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 24 Mar 2011, 16:00

I just love my FsN. I've never had more fun shooting. I also own a Sig Sauer .45. Another excellent gun. However, if the two guns could argue, you know the Sig's ace in the hole would be stopping power. It would probably be a game ending point too.

I once had "Stopping Power" defined to me this way: it's 3:00 AM, you've been asleep for hours when you are suddenly awakened to the sound of two very loud men busting through your front door. As you reach for your loaded .45 next to the bed, you're listening to the sound of the two men in your house laughing and carrying on as if high on drugs. You stand in the doorway to your bedroom with your gun raised with trembling hands when one of the intruders emerges at the other end of the hall. His face red and eyes blood-shot. In the next moment, he sees you and begins charging your direction while raising his own gun up in your direction. You fire a shot....

...it is in this very moment that "Stopping Power" is measured. A fraction of a second after you fire your gun striking intruder in the center of his chest with a .45 slug, do you feel safe? Do you feel the need to fire a second shot in order to achieve the feeling of victory? Most will tell you that a .45 slug into the center of the chest of even a large man is so instantaneously immobilizing that the moment you fire the first shot, you know that it is over. However, with smaller calibers the immediate immobilization is less apparent making you feel the need to fire a second round. The idea conveyed by this very specific set of circumstances is that if you were instead defending yourself with a 9mm, the lunatic might power through the first round and keep coming after you.

While I think this a bizzaar set of circumstances, I still believe SP a worthwhile thing speculatively measure. If I fired a 5.7 round at the intruder, would he just look down and laugh? Obviously, this is silly. How high would you have to be to run towards someone firing ANY gun at you? Any thoughts?

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by jgreenberg01 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:06

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. There is no such thing as "stopping power"... regardless of the round used (with the possible exception of a 50 BMG), if your aim is off, that drugged up, charging BG won't be stopped. The rule of thumb I believe is this:

Don't keep shooting until you think the BG is dead, keep shooting until the BG thinks he's dead...



Edit: I use both calibers every day - I carry my FsN all day, but my nightstand weapon is my FNP-45 Tactical. Regardless of which gun I have with me when the SHTF... I will still follow my above rule.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 24 Mar 2011, 16:15

So jgreenberg, where IS this sweet spot? Is there a link to an article you can give me that defines this location?

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by srt-4_jon » 24 Mar 2011, 16:26

If I fire one shot into an intruder, he better be looking out for shot 2, 3, and 4. Doesn't matter if I am shooting 22lr or a 12GA shotgun, I wouldn't wait to see if he might fall.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by firestorm248 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:38

I honestly think any bad guy whether shot with a .22 or a 50 cal will quickly reevaluate his situation. I know if I was an intruder, if I survive the first shot, I am going to be thanking god and getting the hell out. They did say it right before though it’s all about shot placement and how accurate you are with the gun you use. I can nail a damn near perfect group with the 5.7 but my 9mm and 40 are not even close to that accurate, if fact I may more be a danger to a neighbor with them. It’s all about what you can shoot with and your shot placement. If you want to know a sweet spot just go center mass, largest area of vital organs. Not to mention in a truly stressful situation your accuracy is cut in half so center mass gives the best margin for error. If the bad guy is high on drugs and doesn’t stop coming unload rounds center mass until he does.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by jgreenberg01 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:42

Ospy wrote:So jgreenberg, where IS this sweet spot? Is there a link to an article you can give me that defines this location?
I didn't suggest anywhere in my post that there is a sweet spot, in fact, I was saying that it is not the most prudent idea to assume that any one shot is going to put the BG down to stay. Having said that though, let's assume that you can hit the "sweet spot" ie: sever the spinal-cord at the base of the brain while shooting paper targets at the range. That doesn't necessarily translate to a real-world situation because:

a) the BG is not likely to stand still that long
b) you're adrenaline will be pumping which causes your hand to shake, and
c) even if you train on a regular basis, when it happens for real, it will likely be a very fast & disorienting situation

Even trained professions, police, don't hit their targets 100% of the time. In fact, depending on what article you read, their shots hit as low as 40% (or less) of the time. I googled it and here are the first articles that came up:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
on page 5:
Portland police reportedly struck adversaries with 24 rounds out of 67 fired (36% hit ratio). Firing semi-auto pistols from July 21, 1984 through February 7, 1992, officers struck their adversaries with 19 rounds out of 44 that were fired (43% hit ratio).
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weeki ... .html?_r=1
In all shootings — including those against people, animals and in suicides and other situations — New York City officers achieved a 34 percent accuracy rate (182 out of 540), and a 43 percent accuracy rate when the target ranged from zero to six feet away. Nearly half the shots they fired last year were within that distance.
These were just the ones at the top of the search results. My point is - if the trained professionals need to fire so many shots to stop the BG, why would we ever consider a "one-shot" solution, regardless of caliber used?
Last edited by jgreenberg01 on 24 Mar 2011, 16:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Robar » 24 Mar 2011, 16:44

Shot placement is everything. Just because you shoot someone doesn't mean that they will go down. Even with a shot to the heart a person can still live for several minutes. The only consistent and instant one shot stop is by severing the abdullah oblongata, which means a center mass shot to the head.
General rule is shoot till they go down. This, of course, is only for a deadly force situation, where you are trying to save your life or the life of another person and taking a life is the only way to accomplish that. The mozambique or failure drill is also a good way to train.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by firestorm248 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:48

Though popularized in television and movies, and commonly referred to as "true stopping power" by novice or uneducated proponents of large powerful calibers such as .44 Magnum, the effect of knockback from a handgun and indeed most personal weapons is largely a myth. The momentum of the so-called "manstopper" .45 ACP bullet is approximately that of a 1 pound (0.45 kg) mass dropped from a height of 11.4 feet (3.5 m).[9][note 1] Such a force is simply incapable of arresting a running target's forward momentum. In addition, bullets are designed to penetrate instead of strike a blunt force blow, because, in penetrating, more severe tissue damage is done. A bullet with sufficient energy to knock down an assailant, such as a high-speed rifle bullet, would be more likely to instead pass straight through, while not transferring the full energy (in fact only a very small percentage of the full energy) of the bullet to the victim.

The "knockback" effect is however commonly "seen" in real-life shootings, and can be explained by physiological and psychological means. Humans encountering a physical hit, be it a punch or a bullet, are conditioned to absorb the blow by moving in the same direction as the force. The physical effect against a non-penetrating weapon is to reduce the force felt by the blow, and in addition, retreating from an attack increases the distance such an attack must cover, which in the case of non-projectile weapons such as fists or a knife, places the target out of range of further attack. In addition, there is a theoretical sociological explanation, that in modern civilization, with far greater separation by most individuals from violence, hunting, and combat, normal individuals may simply recoil, buckle, or fall backward when hit by a bullet, even when in pure physiological terms they are perfectly capable of continuing to charge.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by DmL5 » 24 Mar 2011, 17:01

Most will tell you that a .45 slug into the center of the chest of even a large man is so instantaneously immobilizing that the moment you fire the first shot, you know that it is over.
Beliefs of this sort are dangerous fantasy. "Stopping power" is dictated by shot placement, not bullet size. Pistol and rifle bullets alike are extremely small, and there have been numerous cases where "large" pistol bullets (e.g. 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP) required many hits to incapacitate criminals. On the other hand, the Five-seveN has minimal recoil, allowing for more accurate followup shots; it also has a much higher magazine capacity than your typical .45 ACP pistol, weighs much less, has a flatter trajectory, and with the right ammunition can penetrate virtually any type of body armor in common use.
Last edited by DmL5 on 24 Mar 2011, 19:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by PainKillaX » 24 Mar 2011, 17:05

The .45 creates a big hole; its goal is to incapacitate the target through blood loss.
The 5.7x28 has the advantage in penetration; incapacitation through damaging the central nervous system.

Another thing to consider, a 230 gr .45 at 1000 fps puts out a little over 500 ft/lbs where as a EA T-6 puts out just over 400. So the .45 has what I presume is a 20% advantage in "knockback" but as Jay has said, against even a heavy leather coat a .45 may fail to expand, negating its advantage of "bigger hole".

In a close situation such as a drug crazed attacker in my home, I'd much rather put one or two through the spine with the 5.7 and drop him there rather than wait for him to bleed out with a .45. Then again, plug him in the skull with just about any round and he's done. It really is all about shot placement but sometimes different rounds work better for different places.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by smpsmp » 24 Mar 2011, 17:39

Everyone couldn't be more right about shot placement. I always shoot center of mass, which means it might be a shot to the chest if someone is standing right in front of you, and it could be there thigh if only their leg is sticking out from behind cover. The only things that will really stop a "zombie" is a shot to the heart, brain, or spine / blood loss / and just giving up the fight. As greenberg said, shoot till the bad guy thinks he's dead.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by DmL5 » 24 Mar 2011, 18:25

To expand on the advantages of the Five-seveN platform itself, here is a comparison between another polymer handgun (the .45 ACP Glock 21) and Five-seveN:

-- Capacity. The Five-seveN has a flush-fit magazine capacity of 20 rounds, while the G21 has a flush-fit capacity of 13 rounds; so the Five-seveN carries about 55% more ammunition in a standard magazine. If a larger magazine capacity is desired, 30-round Five-seveN magazines are also available and only add about 1.5 inches to the height of the standard magazine.

-- Weight. The Five-seveN weighs 1.6 lb when loaded with 20 rounds, while the Glock 21 weighs 2.4 lb when loaded with 13 rounds; so when both guns are loaded, the Five-seveN is about 33% lighter than the G21. Meanwhile, a spare Five-seveN magazine (loaded) weighs about 0.3 lb, while a spare G21 magazine (loaded) weighs about 0.75 lb; so each spare (loaded) Five-seveN magazine is about 60% lighter than its G21 counterpart.

-- Trajectory. The 5.7x28mm fired from the Five-seveN pistol drops about 5 inches (more or less, depending on load) at 100 yards, while a 230 grain .45 ACP at 850 ft/s drops about 25 inches at the same distance; and there is a significant difference in drop even at 50 yards.

-- Penetration. The 5.7x28mm fired from the Five-seveN (with proper ammunition) will penetrate virtually any type of body armor in common use, while the .45 ACP will not penetrate even the weakest body armor types. [See some of the recent shootings involving body armor, such as the Binghamton shooting rampage and the Tyler, Texas courthouse shootout. In the former, a man wearing body armor murdered 13 people before killing himself. In the latter, a man wearing body armor opened fire outside a courthouse, killing and wounding several people; the attacker was shot in the chest and back repeatedly by Mark Wilson with his .45 ACP CCW pistol, but the rounds had no effect on the attacker's body armor and Wilson was killed as a result.]

-- Controllability. The 5.7x28mm has about 30% less recoil than the 9mm, and the difference widens when you compare it to the .45 ACP.

So when you look at the overall picture, the Five-seveN platform itself offers a number of advantages that far outweigh a couple tenths of an inch difference in bullet diameter.

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Ospy » 24 Mar 2011, 20:16

This is all very interesting stuff. Thanks guys for taking the time

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 24 Mar 2011, 21:13

Welcome to our forum! :)

Thanks to all the users that answered the OP's question. This question has been answered time and time again. If you'd used the search function, you'd have found it. The search function is located on the right hand side of the banner, for reference :thumb:

How about everyone just save this thread and others and send new people to it? :)
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by panzermk2 » 25 Mar 2011, 12:46

I Mozambique drill no matter what, and if it's still moving a repeat Mozambique.
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by panzermk2 » 25 Mar 2011, 13:01

satellitedr3ams wrote:Depends on how high they are... on the stopping power. The brain may be dead, but the body may not be.

EA PFP from pistol 15 feet bone in pork shoulder.


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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by Davidlee » 26 Mar 2011, 02:56

When I shoot, I practice the double tap with a third round to the head if needed, when the aggressor is no longer aggressing is when it is time to stop shooting :agree:
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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 26 Mar 2011, 11:55

You can triple tap into torso.

At 50 feet, the FsN will triple tap into an IDPA or USPSA A-zone. I've done this many times, and so can anyone.

That means at practical SD distances of 2-5 feet to 20 feet, you can 5 tap all into the BG's vitals. :)

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by sinistershame » 26 Mar 2011, 13:14

I really enjoy this direction of debate. It is one that cannot be proved or adequated due to the "lack of definition". Basically you have two different theoretical ideas. 1. Is that a larger mass projectile will deliver more force or "stopping power" than a smaller mass projectile. and there are a number of studies and tests that evaluate the mass to force ratio and the resulting "stopping power". 2. that velocity over mass will deliver more force or "stopping power" to a target. Force= mass X velocity, this equasion can be used to find the exact "Force" any round at any speed delivers on contact. However for this debate simple "force" does not equate into "stopping power" becasue as any one who has any experience shooting at a live target will tell you there are places on any target where a large round will not stop a living target as there are locations on large targets where a 22cal or similar will "stop and drop". Then we have to include the effects of tissue trama. This is where the 5.7 shines. It is a proven fact that a super sonic round delivers a masive amount of "tissue trama" on target. Now you have to consider the projectiles ability to transfer force to target. If you have a projectile that travels through the target all the potential energy is carried with the projectile. So you have to have a round that will transfer ALL of it's energy into the target. Now we see why this is a fun debate. The number a of variables in conjuction with the absence of a accepted definition of "stopping power" makes everyones "oppinion" accurate to the most part. For mor on "stopping power" visit this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So in my "opinion" those that have stated that "stopping power" is the result of shot placement, probably closer to being correct. I would suggest the fastes, largest round that you can place where you want. I have a small wife (105lbs wet) a 45 acp in her hands will have very little stopping power due to her inability to manage the firearm. Yet the 380 that she has fired 300-400 rounds through will have more stopping power because I know she can hit what she aims at. My 13yr old daughter will do better with her GSG 22 than anything else, mostly due to her laser grips.
Then some one added in the "Drug effect". this changes everything, because it is a unmearurable variable. There are a number of events where even the 308 fired from a rem 700 failed to stop a druged taliban. Wow where does this debate go now?

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Re: FsN and the Stopping Power stigma

Post by blueorison » 26 Mar 2011, 13:41

Welcome to our forum, SS.

This debate has been held over and over again. It is pointless.

There is no such thing as stopping power. As you've noted, what you can do on your part is shot placement above all.

Any caliber that enters the body undergoes so many variables; the timing of the organs (see: heart), how much water you have in your body at that instant, body fat, etc.* In many instances, .22 LR even outpenetrates bigger calibers...

Forums argue back and forth on this topic week after week. 5.7x28mm, being the controversial and most ignorantly-known round (many know about it; even more are ignorant on the round), we see this topic brought up by every other new person to join the forum. I wish they would use the search function to bring up old threads and read into them instead of rehashing things. :( But people need to be re-everything; affirmed, comforted, seconded. This way, the round in the firearm sitting by their bedside will give them a peace of mind.

There is nothing wrong with being re-everything'd. But we should be out there practicing instead of in here arguing. Arguing does no good in this specific instance. Practicing our shot placement does. :)

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*information sourced from speaking with professional wound experts and examiners, not of my own or sourced online.
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